Hello all

I need some advice with regard to a performance build for a 2009 Ultra Classic.  I plan to increase from 96 Cubs to 103, a set of Andrews 37 Cams and head work(flowed at 250cfm  and around 146 cfs velocity intake and 208 exhaust with 103 cfs velocity).  At present I have the high flow breather kit, Cat removed and Hooker Tune Flow Pipes fitted.
 

With the mods mentioned, I want good torque and mid range rather than top end as I would never use it.  I also dont want the fuel consumpion increased very dramaticly. Most of my riding is one up cruising.

What are the forums thoughts?  any coment welcome

regards

Dave

Whos doing ya head work

Iam interested to hear more

On a bagger, I would seriously look at 107 as this is the same cost these days as a 103" build....................escpecially if you are packing heaps and got the missus on the back..................there are quite a number of cams that are low stress but produce very good numbers.

Setting up the heads to have .600" lift using the stock beehive springs and cleaning up the ports and has been a very cheap and effective build that produces everything you need in a 107 build to get you to pass trucks easy....etc. etc. and still get great economy on a run if you dont have a strong trigger finger.....................cams up to 244 duration and .580 lift seem to suit this type of build well.

Everyone gets caught up in the wide duration bit and are often never happy with the result................................................I think Hogbag is gonna get on here and tell us just how much pluck those TW5-6 cams have in the low/mid range were we spend most of our life.................they do turn off around 5400/5800 dependant on port sizes.

Ozroder

I am interested to know where you got the idea of the heads being ported to X amount of cubic feet per second..................................this is of course is what needs to be done but normally you would only be quoted head flow numbers.................

What are the port velocities, particularly the amounts you have quoted going to do for your build?

What port diameters, and valve sizes are you looking at getting to meet those requirements?

What cams did you have in mind to get the most out of those port velocities?

Ozroder

The heads are being done in the states by a bloke by the name of Kieth Dunn, the results quote are the end result of machinine etc. I will try and attach the flow chat.

Scotty, mentioned the 54H cams over the the 37. My understanding is thet they are similar but the 54 are a bit longer in duation. My question is with the longer duration, will it ve more beneficial for top end rather than torque?

Test Description:   2010-  Harley Davidson Touring heads w/chromoloy retainers & keepers, beehive .550 lift springs

              Intake valve diameter:  1.900 Exhaust valve diameter:  1.610

              Flow test pressure:   28”  

Test Port	Intake							Exhaust
Valve lift	.100	.200	.300	.400	.500	.600		.100	.200	.300	.400	.500	.600
VOL. (cfm)	54.2	112.7	170.8	201.4	210.1	212.5	Stock Head	47.0	90.2	134.7	166.4	174.0	175.1
Vel.   (cfs)
VOL. (cfm)	71.8	134.5	200.8	238.8	242.2	248.9	Ported Front	54.2	114.4	163.9	190.1	202.6	208.4
Vel.    (cfs)	47	81	119	141	148	149		28	58	84	98	103	106
VOL. (cfm)	67.6	131.3	196.8	235.7	243.5	248.8	Ported Rear	56.3	112.7	157.1	187.2	200.1	205.1
Vel.   (cfs)	45	78	117	142	147	148		29	57	82	96	102	106

Exhaust to intake Port Flow Ratio:­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­ 82%        Performance Notes: Added 18% intake volume    Added 19% exhaust volume

Heads are decked .013  to 83cc’s                                       Very high velocity flow rates.               

Test performed by:  Keith  Dunn

Get a second mortgage on ya family home mate,  thats my advice. lol.  or sell one of ya kids.
 

The hardest part is setting a budget and sticking to it.  There is always something xtra that you think you need.  So you say to yourself, what the heck,  may as well do that while it is apart, and before you can blink you have overspent your allocated budget but its too late, the horsepower bug has got ya.

Trust me I know.

Rob.

Hi m8, i can't coment on the head flow as all the flow testing i have for my heads are flowed @ 10" , but nothing wrong with testing @ 28" as can pick up small gains you don't see flowing @10".

but if you not interested in top end i would have just left the heads stock and had a good valve job on a sunnen or Serdi, with the andrews 37 they need more comp than stock to work well, did they flow your heads with intake manifold your useing on?

good luck mate

Cracked me up
 

Stix, are you keeping those 9fs or do you wanna sell em ?.  Also I sent an email to JBV asking about the Guppy a couple of days ago.  (price & availablity)  Havnt heard back from them yet.  Next obvious choice will be the D&D Lowcat.

Scotty is right, Bob Woods has not been around Harleys that long, he was a car man ( big difference) he seems to Copy Harvey Cranes idea's, but if you asked he would say he don't. if you open valves fast and close them fast it's good for torque, but hard on valve train. you can still ride them anywhere just you have to pull them down for maintainance more offten & put up with the noise. s&s make good cams with large displacement in mind, Andrews make good cams too, Mike Roland designed some good cams for a company that mostly made chrome goody's, they call them Wild Things. Mike has lots of experience with Harleys and for many years, both street and racing, he understands what you need when you say touring, like touring you could ride Perth to Sydney and Back a few times, with Woods you would ride perth to sydney & hopefully back then rebuild. most don't really understand what they want. i don't and probably never will. but it's still fun seeing what happens. a cam change is not magic, in most cases it just moves the power & TQ around, but does not always give you more power or TQ. hard to explain.

Sometimes pipes can make more difference than a cam change. sometimes the manifold or throtle body- carb could make more difference.

if you really want grunt at revs below 4,000 and grunt that you can feel instanly, you won't be tuning on a dyno @ rpm to see what HP TQ it makes @ what rpm, you will only worry about the tune & the combination that can make the most TQ HP the quickest, so you will ask the dyno operator to just do timmed runs and use the combination that can make the most HP TQ in less than five seconds wide open throtle, you won't worry at all how much total power & Torque it makes as that is not important as under 4,000 rev your not going to ever use it.

Like at a Drag Strip you might think you want the most HP possible and just tune for HP useing RPM but what you have not taken into account is RPM does not tell you how long it took to make the HP & TQ it just tells you at what rev, so if you have a 180HP big twin that makes 180HP @ 6,600rpm but it took 13 seconds wide open throtle to get to 6,600 rev, it won't help much at the drag strip.

a lot of performance manufacturers hate it when you ask for a timed dyno ghrap as that will show just how quick a motor spools up.

sorry for the long winded post, i just like to tell it as it is.

PS. if anyone used Lindwebber Cams back in shovelhead days they would know all about agressive ramps that need super strong heavy valve springs to keep the followers following the cam lobes & wear everything out fast

Scotty

I realise that the 09 bikes have different gearing to my 07,if anything the gearing on the 09 bike should give a better seat of the pants experience.

Lots of guys pull all sorts of cams out of bikes,for all sorts of reasons.

As far as noise goes,I find that my engine isn't much noisier than it was with the standard cam,and is no noisier than bikes I know that have supposedly quiet Andrews cams.

The TW7H cams are not that radical,as they are designed for heavy touring bike.

I have had no problems or reliability factors,but then again,I went to great pains to make sure that everything was done properly the 1st time.Unfortunatelytoo many so called experts tend to throw things together without any thoughts as to compatability,which in the long run leads to premature failure.

And I agree,everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Unfortunately,too many people have opinions on hearsay only.

Krash

Actually if you look at Crane and S&S cams,you will see a lot of similarities.

What I mentioned was a cam designed to move a large heavy touring bike in the rev range that most touring bikes get ridden in.Now I actually have the Cams installed ,have ridden many miles on the bike with the cams installed,have found the engine to be no noisier than bike fitted with so called Quiet cams,and above all,it has been extremely reliable.

But then again,the Tw7H is not a HotRod cam,check the specs.It is made for a specific portion of the market,primarily the touring bike market.And I agree that you SHOULD tune to the parameters that the bike will mostly be used in.Which is what I have done,and also have a cam that works within that rev range.

Look at the specs of Leinweber Cams and they were MUCH MUCH more radical than anything you would think of putting in a touring type of bike,but they make great HP on the track,or in lighter bikes.

Horses for courses.

I deal in 1st hand facts and not in other peoples hearsay or inuendo.

nobody

Scotty

Read again

I never mentioned that you had no real life experience.What I did state that what I was stating was based on MY real life experiences,and of people I know and trust.

I also agree that what happens on a dragstrip has no bearing on a well prepared road bike.

Dragstrips are made for people that cant ride around bends

And yes I know a little about what it takes to make a bike go fast.Over 30yrs in the trade and prepared and raced my own bikes in A grade road races.

Unfortunately too many people on Forums sprout facts and figures from websites,and unfortunately have no real idea what to do with all the information.

Afterall,if you believe everything on all the websites,every component by every manufacturer would be the best you can buy and would give you the winning edge.The true ability is to weed ot the fact from fiction

nobody

Scotty

I don't really think that in this modern day and age that there are too many BAD cams out there.What is bad,is the applications that people use different cams in.And also how too many people think that a cam is a magical stick that will give them copious amounts of power.Again it comes down to the preparation of the build as a whole and not just the individual parts.What has to be taken into consideration with any performance build is,how each individual part will react with another part,and is there something that will perform better together,but not nenessarily have the best individual figures for that type of part.

Agree whole heartedly that we all have different ideas and ways of doing things,and that keeps the aftermarket industries in business.

As long as the individual is happy with their ride,it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks anyway.

nobody

Scotty whats bob woods clame to fame mate? he is a five times funny car champ.

he only showed up with the Evo mate not a long time for Harleys.

i.ve always ridden what i drag race on the street and was never limited to were i could go with my bike, and all the Screaming Eagle racers in Sydney are the same.

one of the boys goes for rides out to Silverton & Broken Hill when theres a good dust storm on, then comes to the track runs 11's, same bike. none of us seem to have problems, i've ridden to willowbank QLD to race on the same bike i still race, ridden up raced & road home. Darren Sheppard that not long ago lost his life, Road from Sydney to Perth to race in Modified Bike at the Western Nationals two years back road home that bike runs high 10's.

you have said you get to the track yourself mate, so anytime you like i'll ride were you like and race you ride home, my bike is registered and i know what it can do with confidence.

cheers