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  • ghostwolf59 Posts: 213
    Just around the block
    Stock Poster ghostwolf59
    19 Aug 2017 01:32 AM
    Hi folk
    Let me lay it out there from the start ... Im coming from a Swedish chop culture that is noticeable more liberated compared whats going on in Australia.
    Miss seeing these sweet chops on the road here and have to say its getting a bit boring with more or less stock bikes on the road (sure some tweaks here and there, but a far cry from what I am used to).
    So, I have slowly built up an urge to build something based on what I am used to (bringing my son into the project so he can learn) but my(!) ideas and whats acceptable in oz may not necessary go hand in hand - so looking for some advice on this

    1. just how radical can you go? - This is sort of where Id like to go...
     
    HD Forums Australia - chopper nice 1.jpg

    But I rarely seen any real long fork/bare minimal chops around so wonder if oz (WA in particular) pretty much banned projects like this?

    2. Starting from nothing (dont want to chop my 1981 FLHC for this :) - whats the best option?
    2.1 like get a frame with title that can take an older motor (shovel ideally) - (One guy on the net claimed that bikes before 1974 or so dont need a title since there no nbr on the frame (came across as somewhat weird) - a title is after all a title and I know guys in the old country that have paper on 40th harleys - so surely oz must have paperwork on older bikes as well (even if that is just on the frame)
    3. While on the paper subject... Buying a for example 1974 frame that comes with a title, would that allow me to build my own thing around it or do I need to get a bunch of gov signoffs and fill in 100 mile paper work before I can get it registered - assuming legit paper work would allow me to build something based on the era without being forced to apply todays regulations on it

    4. Checked some forums about importing projects and it seem a bit of a hit/miss and costly - what would be the best starting point on this ? my thoughts were getting the frame or rolling chassi (with legit paper/title) - problem is that theres hardly anything available in oz for older bikes, hence looking for the import option

    I am fully aware this project (if its ever taking off) would be potentially costly, so no real need to address that side of things - more interested in the regulations (if its even possible in oz (WA) to get a "real" chopper on the road and good places to shop around for a project without being burnt with something you never can get registered due to any number of issues

  • VirtualT Posts: 258
    Yanchep
    Stage 1 Poster VirtualT
    19 Aug 2017 09:00 PM
    For what its worth, it was 1970 was when HD first started putting numbers on the frame, before that it was only engine numbers.
    Secondly in WA you would probably get smashed for not having a front mud guard :)
  • ghostwolf59 Posts: 213
    Just around the block
    Stock Poster ghostwolf59
    19 Aug 2017 10:28 PM
    Posted by VirtualT on 19 Aug 2017 07:00 PM
    For what its worth, it was 1970 was when HD first started putting numbers on the frame, before that it was only engine numbers.
    Secondly in WA you would probably get smashed for not having a front mud guard :)

     

    Cheers for that input

    So in lack of engine numbers, how does paper proving the year & model work ? - If someone have a bike (or frame only) prior to 1971 I would still expect that a title etc exists on it - if not, how would transfer of ownership work out that allow me to work on the bike according to its age - dont want to risk buying into something old that at the end of the day force me to comply with 2017 regulation (even if the bike havent been registered at the time of purchase my expectation is that as long as I get legit paperwork on the year, that year would be assessed once you take it over the pit

    in regards to the front mudguard - did I mention that Sweden have a radically more liberal regulatory viewpoint :) - Wont help me here though, but a mudguard on a fork like the one pictured would be like diapers on a healthy 20 year old - no need - if WA regulation is about safety and spray, any spray from this front wheel would end up anywhere but on the rider - another trick to this is to have a lean cross bar between the fork legs close to the wheel - no spray what so ever - But again, this is what I dont understand with the oz rules (and WA in particular) - idiots making up rules without any scientific knowledge or know how :(


  • VirtualT Posts: 258
    Yanchep
    Stage 1 Poster VirtualT
    20 Aug 2017 12:46 AM
    Posted by ghostwolf59 on 19 Aug 2017 08:28 PM
    Posted by VirtualT on 19 Aug 2017 07:00 PM
    For what its worth, it was 1970 was when HD first started putting numbers on the frame, before that it was only engine numbers.
    Secondly in WA you would probably get smashed for not having a front mud guard :)

     

    Cheers for that input

    So in lack of engine numbers, how does paper proving the year & model work ? -

     Excellent question, the law is pretty relaxed in that regard, for example there is a '68 shovel knocking around for sale in Perth periodically that doesn't have one bit of 1968 motorcycle on it.., maybe it had a '68 engine in it at one stage or he managed to con the inspector into believing it was mostly a '68 who knows, once the bike is registered as a certain age you can pretty much do whatever to it and only be in the shit if you get a yellow sticker on it.

    When you come to getting an old (standard) bike inspected for registration it only needs to comply with the regulations for its age not for 2017, and for pre 1970 would be aged on the engine number.

    There is a complete list of regulations you can download from one of the government websites on what a motorcycle must have depending on its age, but I would say if your going to build something radical you would be best to get a registered bike and modify that.

  • ghostwolf59 Posts: 213
    Just around the block
    Stock Poster ghostwolf59
    20 Aug 2017 12:52 PM
    Posted by VirtualT on 19 Aug 2017 10:46 PM

    When you come to getting an old (standard) bike inspected for registration it only needs to comply with the regulations for its age, and for pre 1970 would be aged on the engine number.

     

    So what if theres no engine? Engines are swapped and rebuilt all the time, so even if I had the engine, the block with the stamped number on it could have been replaced over the years.

    The frame is probably that would last...

    This is a reply I received after showing an interest in a old frame and asking about title ...

    "it was a panhead frame and tanks. has been here for 50 years it is here in Melbourne and registered so you don't need a title"

    But I take your point on getting something already registered to chop

  • Scouser Posts: 1847
    Marion, South Australia
    Motor Head Scouser
    21 Aug 2017 09:02 PM
    You dont see long fork choppers like that as most states go by the 550 rule
    From the centre of the neck drop a line to the ground and the front hub cannot be more than 550 mm away from that drop line.
    Thats what it is in South Australia.
  • ghostwolf59 Posts: 213
    Just around the block
    Stock Poster ghostwolf59
    21 Aug 2017 10:09 PM
    Posted by Scouser on 21 Aug 2017 07:02 PM
    You dont see long fork choppers like that as most states go by the 550 rule
    From the centre of the neck drop a line to the ground and the front hub cannot be more than 550 mm away from that drop line.
    Thats what it is in South Australia.


    Thats a damn shame! -Love these genuine no nonsense choppers - where did this 550 rule come from? - Surely no real scientific studies behind the rule - Its been proven over and over again that a properly raked fork is hell safe (in some aspect even more road worthy than standard rake)

    Curious if this dumb ass rule ever been challenged by organizations ? - I guess it would be pretty pointless putting up an argument as an individual, but if enthusiast organizations join hands challenging nonsense rules by putting up scientific evidence and arguments to state govs, perhaps there might be some change over time.


  • Scouser Posts: 1847
    Marion, South Australia
    Motor Head Scouser
    22 Aug 2017 07:17 AM
    Some restrictive reading for you


    https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Vehicle-standards/Vehicle-standards-instructions/9sectionLLmotorbikes1July2014.pdf?la=en


  • carbon fibre Posts: 386
    Stage 1 Poster carbon fibre
    22 Aug 2017 08:33 AM

    I'm in WA, fyi.

    I bought a 65 Pan in from the states, and because it had a 61 engine in it and the USA title their bikes on engine number, I had to register it in WA as 1961 Pan.

    Even though I had a brand new S&S P93 engine in it, with it's own unique engine numbers, before I could leave the rego depot, I had to stamp into frame the 1961 engine number, was my choice where to put it, just had to be done for WA rego purposes.

    I plan to build a chopper at some stage, my plan is to use the original 61 PAN cases I have, build the bike, never rego it. Use my current plate of my 65/61, lol, and if I get stickered I'll just take the 65/61 in to get it removed. 

    In this case it helps that I have more than 1 bike and get the same number onto two bikes legit, sort of. does this make sense, hope not. LOL.


    HD Forums Australia - IMG_5212_zpsbe844001.jpg

  • El Skitzo Posts: 169
    Perth WA
    Stock Poster El Skitzo
    22 Aug 2017 03:25 PM

    If you're going to build a Chopper in WA from the ground up using a custom frame you're going to have to read up and learn all about ICVs (Individually Constructed Vehicle) as that is what you're Chopper will be in the eyes of the transport department of WA.

    As an ICV you'll need to fully comply with the ADRs (Australian Design Rules) of the day,  being 2017 right now, regardless of the year of manufacture of the engine. The ADRs spell out very specifically what you can and cannot do, and the measurements of everything you must comply with, in terms of frame, handlebar width and height, how far the front and rear fenders have to cover the wheels, all the lighting, indicators, reflectors, license plate position, exhaust volume, mirror surface area, ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! And as mentioned above the big killer to your Sweedish Chopper dreams (and my same dreams) is the 550mm rule. This is a hard and fast rule in WA for all motorcycle regardless of ADRs or year of manufacture, with NO exceptions PERIOD.

    You'll also need to get an accredited engineer involved in the project as they will have to sign off on every aspect of the bike before you can take it to the transport department for licensing inspection. They have to brake test the bike, noise test the bike, sign off on welds all over the bike, or if the frame doesn't have an MSO they'll have to approve the frame (good luck with that).

    The easier paths (both of which I have taken), is (A) to buy a bike already licensed and then change it to suit your style, or (B) build a bike using a recognised vintage frame (I'm starting a Chopper build with a 1965 Triumph frame) that you know will be licensed as a vintage bike so you avoid all the ADRs rubbish like indicators etc, but in all cases you cannot escape the 550mm rule in WA unfortunately.

  • ghostwolf59 Posts: 213
    Just around the block
    Stock Poster ghostwolf59
    22 Aug 2017 04:20 PM
    Posted by El Skitzo on 22 Aug 2017 01:25 PM

    If you're going to build a Chopper in WA from the ground up using a custom frame you're going to have to read up and learn all about ICVs (Individually Constructed Vehicle) as that is what you're Chopper will be in the eyes of the transport department of WA.

    As an ICV you'll need to fully comply with the ADRs (Australian Design Rules) of the day,  being 2017 right now, regardless of the year of manufacture of the engine. The ADRs spell out very specifically what you can and cannot do, and the measurements of everything you must comply with, in terms of frame, handlebar width and height, how far the front and rear fenders have to cover the wheels, all the lighting, indicators, reflectors, license plate position, exhaust volume, mirror surface area, ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! And as mentioned above the big killer to your Sweedish Chopper dreams (and my same dreams) is the 550mm rule. This is a hard and fast rule in WA for all motorcycle regardless of ADRs or year of manufacture, with NO exceptions PERIOD.

    You'll also need to get an accredited engineer involved in the project as they will have to sign off on every aspect of the bike before you can take it to the transport department for licensing inspection. They have to brake test the bike, noise test the bike, sign off on welds all over the bike, or if the frame doesn't have an MSO they'll have to approve the frame (good luck with that).

    The easier paths (both of which I have taken), is (A) to buy a bike already licensed and then change it to suit your style, or (B) build a bike using a recognised vintage frame (I'm starting a Chopper build with a 1965 Triumph frame) that you know will be licensed as a vintage bike so you avoid all the ADRs rubbish like indicators etc, but in all cases you cannot escape the 550mm rule in WA unfortunately.

     

    Well it seem that I would be forced to shelve my idea of a dream chopper then :( - the 550 rule itself makes this dream of mine virtually impossible here...and with all these enthusiast clubs, theres never been an attempt to challenge these nonsense rules and red tape :( - sad


  • Ferrett62 Posts: 315
    Canberra
    Stage 1 Poster Ferrett62
    22 Aug 2017 04:54 PM
    People have probably tried over the years but to change anything in the nanny country would cost more money than most people have and take a lifetime. It is a free country as long as it fits into a very narrow vision of someone else's idea. Never knew we elected these people to tell us how to live, I always thought they were there just to make it possible. 
  • Scouser Posts: 1847
    Marion, South Australia
    Motor Head Scouser
    22 Aug 2017 09:08 PM
    Posted by El Skitzo on 22 Aug 2017 03:25 PM

    If you're going to build a Chopper in WA from the ground up using a custom frame you're going to have to read up and learn all about ICVs (Individually Constructed Vehicle) as that is what you're Chopper will be in the eyes of the transport department of WA.

    As an ICV you'll need to fully comply with the ADRs (Australian Design Rules) of the day,  being 2017 right now, regardless of the year of manufacture of the engine. The ADRs spell out very specifically what you can and cannot do, and the measurements of everything you must comply with, in terms of frame, handlebar width and height, how far the front and rear fenders have to cover the wheels, all the lighting, indicators, reflectors, license plate position, exhaust volume, mirror surface area, ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! And as mentioned above the big killer to your Sweedish Chopper dreams (and my same dreams) is the 550mm rule. This is a hard and fast rule in WA for all motorcycle regardless of ADRs or year of manufacture, with NO exceptions PERIOD.

    You'll also need to get an accredited engineer involved in the project as they will have to sign off on every aspect of the bike before you can take it to the transport department for licensing inspection. They have to brake test the bike, noise test the bike, sign off on welds all over the bike, or if the frame doesn't have an MSO they'll have to approve the frame (good luck with that).

    The easier paths (both of which I have taken), is (A) to buy a bike already licensed and then change it to suit your style, or (B) build a bike using a recognised vintage frame (I'm starting a Chopper build with a 1965 Triumph frame) that you know will be licensed as a vintage bike so you avoid all the ADRs rubbish like indicators etc, but in all cases you cannot escape the 550mm rule in WA unfortunately.

     And I wish I bought your old bike

  • Scouser Posts: 1847
    Marion, South Australia
    Motor Head Scouser
    22 Aug 2017 09:10 PM
    HD Forums Australia - IMG_0033.PNG
    Heres my hardtail Triumph I built and I was lucky to get it through rego
  • El Skitzo Posts: 169
    Perth WA
    Stock Poster El Skitzo
    23 Aug 2017 10:44 AM
    Posted by Scouser on 22 Aug 2017 07:10 PM
    HD Forums Australia - IMG_0033.PNG
    Heres my hardtail Triumph I built and I was lucky to get it through rego

     Awesome ride

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