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  • rodders Posts: 5215
    The Place To Be.
    Forum Legend rodders
    12 Oct 2017 09:19 PM


    HD Forums Australia - the-last-holden-commodore-on-the-production-line-202.jpg
    Hopefully it will go to the National Museum of Australia in Canberra and be displayed next to the first prototype 48/215 they have on display. That way it will show the very First & Last locally manufactured car and also serve as a reminder to our current Federal politicians of what their predecessors saw as a great investment/opportunity and pride in our country offering employment and prosperity to many Australians. Also a reminder to all of what we have now lost in the current economic political idealism of a Global Economy. 

    Due to roll off the production line in it's completed state on or about 20th October 2017.

  • Arron Posts: 108
    WA
    Stock Poster Arron
    12 Oct 2017 10:15 PM
    Sad to see even though the day has been coming for a while.
    Wonder how long it will be before GM kills off the Holden brand.
  • paulybronco Posts: 7771
    Forum Legend paulybronco
    12 Oct 2017 10:18 PM
    Posted by Arron on 12 Oct 2017 09:15 PM
    Sad to see even though the day has been coming for a while.
    Wonder how long it will be before GM kills off the Holden brand.

     Poor business plan, no market awareness and a host of managerial blunders.  RIP Holden

  • Arron Posts: 108
    WA
    Stock Poster Arron
    12 Oct 2017 10:46 PM
    Posted by paulybronco on 12 Oct 2017 07:18 PM
    Posted by Arron on 12 Oct 2017 09:15 PM
    Sad to see even though the day has been coming for a while.
    Wonder how long it will be before GM kills off the Holden brand.

     Poor business plan, no market awareness and a host of managerial blunders.  RIP Holden

     Have only bought two new cars , first one was a 2003 VY One Tonner (still have it) and would probably have bought a second new Holden in 2012 but i didn't want a large car and the Cruze didn't appeal to me. Drove the 1.4 turbo SRI hatch and it was gutless , a modern Torana (six pot rear drive) would have been good.

  • Ferrett62 Posts: 169
    Canberra
    Stock Poster Ferrett62
    12 Oct 2017 11:01 PM
    Yep for years Australia and other countries sent billions to developing countries to help them set up industries so they could eventually support themselves, followed by our manufacturers to take advantage of cheap labour. I wonder if they will send money back here when we have nothing left.
  • Geoff3DMN Posts: 1336
    Castlemaine
    Performance Poster Geoff3DMN
    13 Oct 2017 09:19 AM
    Blaming Holden or blaming overseas wages or local wages is pointless... it all goes back to when the decision was made to cut tariffs.

    Australia was always going to be more expensive to make cars and without tariffs to make imported cars more expensive our auto industry was never going to survive.

    Malaysia's auto industry still runs because a Camry costs $50,000 Australian there (and similar tariffs are applied to all imported cars) so their local assembled cars are price competitive.

    How much do you want an Australian car industry? 

    Enough to pay $40,000 for a base model Corolla, $50,000 for a base model Camry and $60,000 for a base model Commodore?

    Because that's the level of tariffs it would take.

     
  • paulybronco Posts: 7771
    Forum Legend paulybronco
    13 Oct 2017 09:27 AM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 08:19 AM
    Blaming Holden or blaming overseas wages or local wages is pointless... it all goes back to when the decision was made to cut tariffs.

    Australia was always going to be more expensive to make cars and without tariffs to make imported cars more expensive our auto industry was never going to survive.

    Malaysia's auto industry still runs because a Camry costs $50,000 Australian there (and similar tariffs are applied to all imported cars) so their local assembled cars are price competitive.

    How much do you want an Australian car industry? 

    Enough to pay $40,000 for a base model Corolla, $50,000 for a base model Camry and $60,000 for a base model Commodore?

    Because that's the level of tariffs it would take.

     

     I hear you but the obvious answer is no one wanted a Commodore or Camry they all want dual cab utes or SUV and we did not locally manufacture those

  • Geoff3DMN Posts: 1336
    Castlemaine
    Performance Poster Geoff3DMN
    13 Oct 2017 10:54 AM
    Posted by paulybronco on 13 Oct 2017 09:27 AM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 08:19 AM
    Blaming Holden or blaming overseas wages or local wages is pointless... it all goes back to when the decision was made to cut tariffs.

    Australia was always going to be more expensive to make cars and without tariffs to make imported cars more expensive our auto industry was never going to survive.

    Malaysia's auto industry still runs because a Camry costs $50,000 Australian there (and similar tariffs are applied to all imported cars) so their local assembled cars are price competitive.

    How much do you want an Australian car industry? 

    Enough to pay $40,000 for a base model Corolla, $50,000 for a base model Camry and $60,000 for a base model Commodore?

    Because that's the level of tariffs it would take.

     

     I hear you but the obvious answer is no one wanted a Commodore or Camry they all want dual cab utes or SUV and we did not locally manufacture those

     

    Whilst that is true it's also a characteristic of how much they cost.

    How many people would choose a locally built car at $40,000 (Corolla for example) compared to a Triton 4x4 base model dual cab at $75,000 or a Ford Ranger 4x4 top of the range at $110,000?

    People would be forced by the costing imposed by tariffs to choose the 'affordable' option (which then forces people to buy local).


  • paulybronco Posts: 7771
    Forum Legend paulybronco
    13 Oct 2017 10:56 AM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 09:54 AM
    Posted by paulybronco on 13 Oct 2017 09:27 AM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 08:19 AM
    Blaming Holden or blaming overseas wages or local wages is pointless... it all goes back to when the decision was made to cut tariffs.

    Australia was always going to be more expensive to make cars and without tariffs to make imported cars more expensive our auto industry was never going to survive.

    Malaysia's auto industry still runs because a Camry costs $50,000 Australian there (and similar tariffs are applied to all imported cars) so their local assembled cars are price competitive.

    How much do you want an Australian car industry? 

    Enough to pay $40,000 for a base model Corolla, $50,000 for a base model Camry and $60,000 for a base model Commodore?

    Because that's the level of tariffs it would take.

     

     I hear you but the obvious answer is no one wanted a Commodore or Camry they all want dual cab utes or SUV and we did not locally manufacture those

     

    Whilst that is true it's also a characteristic of how much they cost.

    How many people would choose a locally built car at $40,000 (Corolla for example) compared to a Triton 4x4 base model dual cab at $75,000 or a Ford Ranger 4x4 top of the range at $110,000?

    People would be forced by the costing imposed by tariffs to choose the 'affordable' option (which then forces people to buy local).


     Then the grey market imports would flourish.

  • mick44 Posts: 2624
    Forum Legend mick44
    13 Oct 2017 11:38 AM
    How times have changed.
    Still remember when my old man, an FEDFA shop Stewart on the Marlin platform Back in the 70s, 80s, ect told me a story about Gough Whitlam. Something along the lines of when a catastrophe occurred back in Goughs day. Carnt remember if bushfires, floods maybe. The insurance companies went on a go slow on paying claims so Gough threatened to start a government run insurance company. The go slow insurance companies shit themselves and suddenly payed up quick time. From memory, I think I got that right.

    I always thought that the governments in Australia could of passed legislation, knowing that car manufacturing was going to close down, to at least place some incentive for all cars imported to manufacture some percentage of components here in Australia and those that dont, pay a fee on the import license of that particular model. Wouldnt of saved the car production lines but at least might of saved some jobs in the component manufactures. The fee being enough to be a genuine financial incentive to imported car manufacturers. The point being that governments could of actually give a shit, put their ideological hats aside, grew creative balls and did something. Doesnt matter what, just something to keep some employed.

    In the 70s and on for a few decades, aussie workers stood up and counted for something. Now its becoming a nation of grovelers that accept ideological nonsense regarding free trade. Even 10 years after free trade agreements come in, Australia was the only country in the world not to support local car manufacturing. Nonsense you hear me say. Lets see now, Flat to financially receding income growth, the promise of it raining jobs, the promise of competition causing electricity prices to tumble, (Yea right). I still for the life of me have not seen any proof whatsover of Australia entering some financial promise land. All I see is constant job losses and rising cost of living. Not being a smart arse here but all I see at this point is "The rise of the groveler" IE: Accepting receding income growth while privatized companies rip the shit out of us and accepting of shutting down entire industries based on an ideological bent which is slang for promoting the shift of wealth to the very fortunate few.

    Anyway, all the best to those car manufacturing workers and I hope you get something better than a low paid part time job, I really do. As I do consider myself  lucky that I did my apprenticeship back in the 70s, worked the majority of my life with fellow co workers that actually stood up for themselves. 
    Now, the few remaining workers still members of unions that do stand up are hit with a cyclone of grovelling commentators in the media that support even lowering incomes of the most low paid in society. I must admit that I do laugh when the grovelling type of media commentators loose their jobs from time to time. Go figure.

    Edit, Ooops, I forgot. On this bit, I am being a smart arse. 
    In my day, folk stood up, theses days their on their knees.
    I leave that to readers to decipher.
  • Geoff3DMN Posts: 1336
    Castlemaine
    Performance Poster Geoff3DMN
    13 Oct 2017 12:16 PM
    Posted by paulybronco on 13 Oct 2017 10:56 AM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 09:54 AM
    Posted by paulybronco on 13 Oct 2017 09:27 AM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 08:19 AM
    Blaming Holden or blaming overseas wages or local wages is pointless... it all goes back to when the decision was made to cut tariffs.

    Australia was always going to be more expensive to make cars and without tariffs to make imported cars more expensive our auto industry was never going to survive.

    Malaysia's auto industry still runs because a Camry costs $50,000 Australian there (and similar tariffs are applied to all imported cars) so their local assembled cars are price competitive.

    How much do you want an Australian car industry? 

    Enough to pay $40,000 for a base model Corolla, $50,000 for a base model Camry and $60,000 for a base model Commodore?

    Because that's the level of tariffs it would take.

     

     I hear you but the obvious answer is no one wanted a Commodore or Camry they all want dual cab utes or SUV and we did not locally manufacture those

     

    Whilst that is true it's also a characteristic of how much they cost.

    How many people would choose a locally built car at $40,000 (Corolla for example) compared to a Triton 4x4 base model dual cab at $75,000 or a Ford Ranger 4x4 top of the range at $110,000?

    People would be forced by the costing imposed by tariffs to choose the 'affordable' option (which then forces people to buy local).


     Then the grey market imports would flourish.

     

    Not if the grey market imports were also either banned or subject to heavy tariffs.

  • paulybronco Posts: 7771
    Forum Legend paulybronco
    13 Oct 2017 12:28 PM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 11:16 AM
    Posted by paulybronco on 13 Oct 2017 10:56 AM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 09:54 AM
    Posted by paulybronco on 13 Oct 2017 09:27 AM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 08:19 AM
    Blaming Holden or blaming overseas wages or local wages is pointless... it all goes back to when the decision was made to cut tariffs.

    Australia was always going to be more expensive to make cars and without tariffs to make imported cars more expensive our auto industry was never going to survive.

    Malaysia's auto industry still runs because a Camry costs $50,000 Australian there (and similar tariffs are applied to all imported cars) so their local assembled cars are price competitive.

    How much do you want an Australian car industry? 

    Enough to pay $40,000 for a base model Corolla, $50,000 for a base model Camry and $60,000 for a base model Commodore?

    Because that's the level of tariffs it would take.

     

     I hear you but the obvious answer is no one wanted a Commodore or Camry they all want dual cab utes or SUV and we did not locally manufacture those

     

    Whilst that is true it's also a characteristic of how much they cost.

    How many people would choose a locally built car at $40,000 (Corolla for example) compared to a Triton 4x4 base model dual cab at $75,000 or a Ford Ranger 4x4 top of the range at $110,000?

    People would be forced by the costing imposed by tariffs to choose the 'affordable' option (which then forces people to buy local).


     Then the grey market imports would flourish.

     

    Not if the grey market imports were also either banned or subject to heavy tariffs.

     Well they were not and they are an active market for both bikes and cars etc. The industry has gone no use chewing the what ifs about it maybe we should be focusing on our electricity issues .....

  • Baloffski Posts: 377
    Victoria
    Stage 1 Poster Baloffski
    13 Oct 2017 05:43 PM
    Quoted from Pauly "Well they were not and they are an active market for both bikes and cars etc. The industry has gone no use chewing the what ifs about it maybe we should be focusing on our electricity issues ....."
    Now that is a very controversial subject which affects so many, particularly pensioners and low wage earners.It has completely become dis-proportioned for current status quo.
  • rodders Posts: 5215
    The Place To Be.
    Forum Legend rodders
    13 Oct 2017 10:04 PM
    Posted by Geoff3DMN on 13 Oct 2017 09:19 AM
    Blaming Holden or blaming overseas wages or local wages is pointless... it all goes back to when the decision was made to cut tariffs.

    Australia was always going to be more expensive to make cars and without tariffs to make imported cars more expensive our auto industry was never going to survive.

    Malaysia's auto industry still runs because a Camry costs $50,000 Australian there (and similar tariffs are applied to all imported cars) so their local assembled cars are price competitive.

    How much do you want an Australian car industry? 

    Enough to pay $40,000 for a base model Corolla, $50,000 for a base model Camry and $60,000 for a base model Commodore?

    Because that's the level of tariffs it would take.

     

     I call Bull Shit on this Geoff.

    Although you are spot on with the comment about reducing tariffs here. I reckon that's the primary cause of the downfall of car manufacturing and manufacturing in general in Australia. That and the bull shit Commercial In Confidence Free Trade Agreements.

    Tariffs in Australia on imported cars were a mechanism to 'level' the playing field for Austalia. Wages are higher here because our costs of living is higher. If you look at Australian automotive history you will see that foreign car makers were able to side step our tariffs by bringing in CKD (Completely Knocked Down) kits into Australia for local assembly and using local labour and a lot of locally sourced components such as batteries, tyres, glass, interiors. This provided a lot of employment here. Employed people pay income tax. They also spend money which in turn makes the economy prosperous. They buy houses and raise families independent of govt handouts.  But in this modern era the labour component of car manufacture is a lot lower due to robotics and outsourcing component manufacture by tender to small businesses. Never has a Corolla cost anywhere near $40k here. That's because they used to be made here by Australians for Australians. I read recently that Toyota Australia last year made 26,000 Camry cars for our local market and 34,000 for export. That's a small amount in our market of nearly 1m new vehicle sales but it is higher than a lot of other brands which are selling here, keen for their share of the Aussie dollar. Also it is 34,000 vehicles bringing in export dollars which will now not happen as Toyota has stopped manufacturing here recently. But I concede the costs of manufacturing here are increasing. Just look at the energy price increases recently with both electricity and gas which have increased enormously in recent years. It's the price we are expected to pay for a deregulated market and the green political idealism in renewable sources of energy. The politicians make these decisions but its the Mum & Dads and local businesses who have to pay for this idealism with losing their jobs and/or paying higher energy costs. Manufacturing businesses can off shore to places of cheaper more polluting energy countries and lower overall costs and then import back into the Aussie market.

    All this seems like a giant cluster fuck of ideology over reality to me.

    On another thread I showed the price of a new 2017 Softtail Slim in Bali was something like $89,000 aud. That has about the same relevance as your Malaysian example I reckon.

    https://www.hdforums.com.au/Thread/671194/1



  • mick44 Posts: 2624
    Forum Legend mick44
    14 Oct 2017 09:53 AM
    What convinces me that this is ideological by the Australian government, Germanys national debt over 2 Trillion euros. , 63% of GDP. Cost of labour, same as, or at least very comparable to Australia's labour costs. 
    Germany, with their huge national debt and high GDP is considered one of the most successful euro countries and they actually support their manufacturing as any good nations leaders would, (except in Australia)

    So theres a real world comparison. Thats proof enough to me that the govs financial reasons for killing off an entire industry are bullshit. Shows me that all the anti Australian manufacturing comment is just crap.
  • Ferrett62 Posts: 169
    Canberra
    Stock Poster Ferrett62
    14 Oct 2017 12:01 PM
    Posted by mick44 on 14 Oct 2017 09:53 AM
    What convinces me that this is ideological by the Australian government, Germanys national debt over 2 Trillion euros. , 63% of GDP. Cost of labour, same as, or at least very comparable to Australia's labour costs. 
    Germany, with their huge national debt and high GDP is considered one of the most successful euro countries and they actually support their manufacturing as any good nations leaders would, (except in Australia)

    So theres a real world comparison. Thats proof enough to me that the govs financial reasons for killing off an entire industry are bullshit. Shows me that all the anti Australian manufacturing comment is just crap.

     There are similarities to Germany but more differences,  Germany has around 83 million people and so a broader tax base, it is in Europe so it has a large export market for manufactured goods that we don't enjoy. That said they also could let their manufacturing collapse and import most of what they need easily and far cheaper than we could,  but they can see the value in supporting their own industries to create jobs, contribute to the country's wealth through exports which reduces dependence on the government. 

    Australia is a resource rich country so it would make sense to develop those resources here and export the end result which would have to create more wealth from both inside and outside the country, but for some reason successive governments, probebly driven buy their rich masters decided that selling out the Australian people would make them richer faster at the expense of everyone else. Whether colluded with or fooled the government, they created the competition equals cheaper prices myth  to buy essential services to get a captive market that garunteed almost unregulated profits for years to come.

    We have become so pathetic that even the government pays millions a year to hire CEO's from overseas to run places like Telstra and Aust Post because they don't believe the talent exists here, pay me just one million a year and I will go in and sack half the workforce ( because getting rid of front line staff will save money and make things work better) rather than cut executives and try and improve service to gain market share. 

  • badcooky Posts: 1251
    Performance Poster badcooky
    21 Oct 2017 12:05 AM
    No more shit boxes good !
  • allde Posts: 4021
    South Eastern Suburbs, Victori
    Forum Legend allde
    21 Oct 2017 12:45 PM
    What fucked it was when GM bought Holden back in 1931, Holdens interests were no longer Australia and Australian, Multi Nationals hey they fuck it for everyone except their share holders.
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