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  • fatbat Posts: 2758
    Forum Legend fatbat
    30 Nov 2018 10:30 AM
    I stuffed around trying to quieten the big radius exhaust. Smart partz baffles, big city thunder baffles, using combinations of these baffles with the Vance and Hines baffles, welding custom made parts and baffles together etc. I softened the sound a little but it impacted noticeably on performance and given id just spent $4k on an s&s top end, I wasn’t happy. If you do a search on big city thunder baffles you’ll probably find my posts and pictures. After all the effort in addition to looking at other options for purchase and/or development, i simply bought the supermeg exhaust and got good performance with a good but not too noisey sound. 

    Installing a flapper valve into another exhaust will be a complicated and/or costly exercise. 

    I’ve considered most of these options before and the only reasonable alternatives are the patriot defender exhaust or the supertrapp supermeg exhaust. For the supermeg exhaust you can also buy an adjustable end cap that opens between closed and open at the turn of a screw. I think it’s made by LA choppers or cycles from memory.
  • Muzza Wa Posts: 252
    Stage 1 Poster Muzza Wa
    01 Dec 2018 03:35 PM
    Quoting Ratbob on 30 Nov 2018 06:49 AM
    Cheers Muzza
    Whether using a Super tuner or FP3, Won’t the sound valve be closed at idle, in gear or not ?
    I understand that with two valves you’ll need to have them partially open at idle for flow but that could also be achieved by drilling the valves so they can close and maintain a desired flow rate, just add more holes till you get it right ?
    I’ve sent an email to V&H asking them for a technical description on how their FP3 algorithm works, regarding the exhaust flaps, given that they sell a Californian version of the FP3, that must conform to that state’s EPA regs (I don’t know if those regs include noise emissions), and also to ask them why they have an option for “active exhaust” when none of their pipes (at least that I can tell) are “active”. I have also asked them if I can code the flaps conditionally “closed” at 2505 rpm, in the hope that I’ll get to the 91db that the sticky label on my frame references. Problem is that you can easily be doing 60km and above at 2505 rpm, hence my need to include logic that says if the kick stand switch is on, the speed is zero and the revs are between 0-2505 then the bike is in test mode and therefore the flaps must be closed. The FP3 does read the status of the kick stand switch and also knows the speed, so there is hope......let’s see what they say.

    I’ve scrutinised my stock pipes and I’m convinced that with a bit of cutting, welding and grinding that I can install the flap mechanicals on to the VHBR and use the stock actuator. 

    I have a FP3 installed on my wife’s 2012 Fatboy Lo, and I’m in the process of returning it to stock, because we are selling it, so I’ll also conduct my own tests by turning the active exhaust feature on and monitoring the physical actions of the exhaust flaps on her stock pipes.

    I am convinced that baffle wise there is nothing that can be done to the VHBR pipes to quieten them down to,legal limits and not chocking the engine. Every combination of off the shelf and home made baffles does fuck all. See fatbats comments which echo ours.
  • Muzza Wa Posts: 252
    Stage 1 Poster Muzza Wa
    01 Dec 2018 03:38 PM
    Quoting fatbat on 30 Nov 2018 10:30 AMedited: 30 Nov 2018 10:38 AM
    I stuffed around trying to quieten the big radius exhaust. Smart partz baffles, big city thunder baffles, using combinations of these baffles with the Vance and Hines baffles, welding custom made parts and baffles together etc. I softened the sound a little but it impacted noticeably on performance and given id just spent $4k on an s&s top end, I wasn’t happy. If you do a search on big city thunder baffles you’ll probably find my posts and pictures. After all the effort in addition to looking at other options for purchase and/or development, i simply bought the supermeg exhaust and got good performance with a good but not too noisey sound. 

    Installing a flapper valve into another exhaust will be a complicated and/or costly exercise. 

    I’ve considered most of these options before and the only reasonable alternatives are the patriot defender exhaust or the supertrapp supermeg exhaust. For the supermeg exhaust you can also buy an adjustable end cap that opens between closed and open at the turn of a screw. I think it’s made by LA choppers or cycles from memory.
    Agreed fatbat. 
    Installing flaps in the pipes will not be easy but I’m hoping that it will be rewarding. I’ve got time, I just need more information and then courage to make the first cut!
    I don’t like the look of other pipes hence why I am on a quest to quieten the VHBR down.
  • Muzza Wa Posts: 252
    Stage 1 Poster Muzza Wa
    01 Dec 2018 03:46 PM
    I have emailed Jekill and Hyde to find out if they sell their systems minus pipes etc, and also if they supply the flaps to fit different ID pipes. My feeling, based on what I’ve read, is that they will not sell the components separately.

     I have also emailed kesstech the same request but I feel I’ll get the same response.

    If I do get negative responses regarding the supply only then I’ll query how they handle repairs when individual parts fail.

     Jekill and Hyde guarantee that their pipes will meet the specifications of your bike if you send them a picture of the sticky label on the frame and supply the details of your air cleaner, but their website also says they guarantee 100db!! That helps nobody!

    There was something else.....the ADR state that adjustable exhausts are not acceptable, given that the stock pipes are adjustable I reckon I have good grounds to argue that point, if the stock active components are used, just on a different pipe!
  • Muzza Wa Posts: 252
    Stage 1 Poster Muzza Wa
    13 Dec 2018 11:31 PM
    Sooooo, I got responses from all 3 companies:-

    Kesstech 

    Hello Muzza,

    many thanks for your request.
    Sorry, your project is not possible. We don't sell single parts.
    If you like to have a kesstech exhaust system you can only choose slipon or a complete system.

    Best Regards
    Joshua

    From Jekill and Hyde 

    Hello Muzza,

    Thank you for your interest in our systems.

    We only sell complete systems via our dealers.

    You can find our products and dealers on our website, www.jekillandhyde.com.

    If you have any more questions, please contact us.

    Kind regards,

    Sjors

    So that pretty much kills the idea of using their parts, unless I can find a dealer willing to part with parts (pardon the play on words), however.............I got an encouraging response from V&H, which I will be following up on in the next few days, I’m hoping that I might be on to something......watch this space, all you V&H SS &BR lovers, that want to keep your pipes and avoid the dreaded canary.
  • Ratbob Posts: 699
    Adelaide Hills
    Performance Poster Ratbob
    13 Dec 2018 11:51 PM
    Quoting Muzza Wa on 13 Dec 2018 11:31 PM
    Sooooo, I got responses from all 3 companies:-

    Kesstech 

    Hello Muzza,

    many thanks for your request.
    Sorry, your project is not possible. We don't sell single parts.
    If you like to have a kesstech exhaust system you can only choose slipon or a complete system.

    Best Regards
    Joshua

    From Jekill and Hyde 

    Hello Muzza,

    Thank you for your interest in our systems.

    We only sell complete systems via our dealers.

    You can find our products and dealers on our website, www.jekillandhyde.com.

    If you have any more questions, please contact us.

    Kind regards,

    Sjors

    So that pretty much kills the idea of using their parts, unless I can find a dealer willing to part with parts (pardon the play on words), however.............I got an encouraging response from V&H, which I will be following up on in the next few days, I’m hoping that I might be on to something......watch this space, all you V&H SS &BR lovers, that want to keep your pipes and avoid the dreaded canary.
    Ripper, thanks Muzza, I’ll be watching for sure. Cheers
  • Muzza Wa Posts: 252
    Stage 1 Poster Muzza Wa
    22 Dec 2018 09:21 AM
    So I continue to exchange very encouraging communications with the third company so let’s see what their techies have to say over time.  Bottom line is yes it’s possible well look at it.
  • Iron Posts: 280
    South Oz
    Stage 1 Poster Iron
    29 Dec 2018 11:13 AM
    I have been thinking about this a lot as well, same pipes same engine same noise. What can be done I still don't know. Put standard system back on to avoid fines? purchase new system ? I like the look of the V&HBR pipes but agree with you that they are just to bloody loud. I have put quiet baffles in but not much difference at all in DB drop. Watching this thread with great interest. 
    .
  • Muzza Wa Posts: 252
    Stage 1 Poster Muzza Wa
    31 Dec 2018 01:27 PM
    Nice bike iron Man!
    I shall re-engage with them on my return from holidays and do my best to keep you all appraised of the situation.

    Happy New year.
  • Ratbob Posts: 699
    Adelaide Hills
    Performance Poster Ratbob
    13 Feb 2019 06:25 AM
    Quoting Muzza Wa on 31 Dec 2018 01:27 PM
    Nice bike iron Man!
    I shall re-engage with them on my return from holidays and do my best to keep you all appraised of the situation.

    Happy New year.
    Hi Muzza, hope you had a great holiday. Got any news for us on this subject? 
  • tussuck Posts: 1640
    Melbourne
    Motor Head tussuck
    13 Feb 2019 10:38 AM

    I recon your pushing it uphill with even pondering trying to fix the V&H ( I have strong views on them as a pipe as I think they are total crap and with EVERY bike using them nowadays just way too common )


    Why not just make a set of pipes?  Biltwell have several kits which include everything you would need so you could either do it yourself or commission a shop/exhaust place to make a set for you with decent baffles installed.  I'm making a set for the Sporty using one of these kits as I cannot buy the pipes I want to run from anywhere!

  • Ratbob Posts: 699
    Adelaide Hills
    Performance Poster Ratbob
    15 Feb 2019 02:55 AM
    Quoting tussuck on 13 Feb 2019 10:38 AM

    I recon your pushing it uphill with even pondering trying to fix the V&H ( I have strong views on them as a pipe as I think they are total crap and with EVERY bike using them nowadays just way too common )


    Why not just make a set of pipes?  Biltwell have several kits which include everything you would need so you could either do it yourself or commission a shop/exhaust place to make a set for you with decent baffles installed.  I'm making a set for the Sporty using one of these kits as I cannot buy the pipes I want to run from anywhere!

    I hope your pipes work out ok. 
    While I like the idea I’m not sure about building non shielded pipes for my 110, I’ve run pipes without em before and it’s way too hot for comfort, I guess the extra 600cc over a sporty makes the difference. 
    Also with Builtwell your still left with an unbaffled pipe, albeit a smaller diameter so the noise issue remains. 
  • Muzza Wa Posts: 252
    Stage 1 Poster Muzza Wa
    06 Mar 2019 03:26 AM
    So, V&H are prepared to  maybe work on a version of the FP3 firmware to enable a user configuration selection as follows:-
    1. Side stand out
    2. Gear in neutral
    3. User preselects the status of the flapper valve/s at given RPM’s and saves the configuration just like you do with any other tuning changes you make.
    If I agree to do the testing and share all the data with them, they will give me a beta to test when they think they have it correctly coded in the firmware.....

    Problem I have now is I got to make up a set of pipes by chopping up my BR, finding/buying an additional OEM flapper valve, installing the two flappers, one in to each pipe then jigging up the stock servo motor to drive both flappers not just one and then testing it.......I have no idea how and when I’m going to get to that point.....just cutting my BR’s is giving me indigestion and sleepless nights, and to top it off, I’m not anything close to a pipe fitter or welder.

    I may just go for the J&H or Kesstech option at the end and sell my BR’s to offset at least some of the cost. To be honest I really did not think that they would go for it but surprise surprise, be careful what you wish for I guess!
  • Ratbob Posts: 699
    Adelaide Hills
    Performance Poster Ratbob
    06 Mar 2019 04:52 AM
    Hi Muzza thanks for the update.
    Getting another valve could be as little as $100, I’ve seen full original systems get sold off for that. Call your local dealers, some have pipes left behind that they’re happy to get did of. I got two new mufflers from Morgan and Wacker in Qld for no cost, said they had so much stuff left behind it was good to see them go.
    Given V&H’s cooperation, I wonder if they’d sell you just the pipes without shields or fitting kit. They sent me another top pipe for free and it arrived in its own parts box so they do stock them as separate items.
    Not sure where you are but I’m happy to check out our two dealers in SA, maybe other members watching could do the same in their areas. All we’d need do is cut the valve section out (leaving an inch or two either side) and post it to you with the cables, could be a start?
  • Muzza Wa Posts: 252
    Stage 1 Poster Muzza Wa
    11 Mar 2019 09:11 PM
    Quoting Ratbob on 06 Mar 2019 04:52 AM
    Hi Muzza thanks for the update.
    Getting another valve could be as little as $100, I’ve seen full original systems get sold off for that. Call your local dealers, some have pipes left behind that they’re happy to get did of. I got two new mufflers from Morgan and Wacker in Qld for no cost, said they had so much stuff left behind it was good to see them go.
    Given V&H’s cooperation, I wonder if they’d sell you just the pipes without shields or fitting kit. They sent me another top pipe for free and it arrived in its own parts box so they do stock them as separate items.
    Not sure where you are but I’m happy to check out our two dealers in SA, maybe other members watching could do the same in their areas. All we’d need do is cut the valve section out (leaving an inch or two either side) and post it to you with the cables, could be a start?
    Thanks Ratbob.

    So I’m going to do the following, I’m going to have the Kesstech system installed, and treat the VHBR sound dampening as a project, enabling me to chop up two sets of OEM Pipes and both of my VHBR and see what comes out of the mix. I will firstly look for a couple of sets of flapper valves complete with cables etc to avoid destroying the OEM pipes, in case I still get canaried with the Kesstech system, the ADR specifically disallows any method that enables the rider to adjust the sound, which as I’ve noted in a previous post, is fucking ridiculous when one considers that the OEM pipes come with the flapper valve installed at the factory and it’s sole purpose in life is to lower the sound during sound testing! Go figure! And both the Jekill and Hyde and Kesstech systems are CE approved! If my idea works however, the flappers will not be adjustable on the fly and will be managed by the ECM in the same way that the OEM flapper valve is.

    I will continue to communicate with VH to see if they will move forward on the mods to the FP3 firmware on this basis. My challenge will now be to use my wife’s 2012 Fatboy Lo as the test bench, which she wants to sell! Luckily the 2012 and 2016 Fatties use the same exhaust fittings etc, and she has a FP3 installed already. I will have to negotiate carefully with her as she has pretty much spent the money from the pending sale in her mind already, on other things! She does not intend to ride anymore but rather be a passenger, and at 48 years old, I’m agreeing with her.

    I will put a plan together for comment on the forum, for anyone that’s interested, but more so for the technically minded people that can help with the project from an engineering perspective. I think the project would have been a lot simpler if they were short shots, not Big Radius!

    Step 1 might be to use the OEM ECM, ( I.e. remove the FP3, and heavy breather etc.), to drive the flapper valve in a single BR pipe as though it is an OEM pipe, probably the top pipe, then move to the bottom pipe, then try to do both, all the time measuring the dB with a good meter. I just don’t know how well the bike would run, using the stock ECM, stock air filter, with the VHBR installed......comments please
  • Ratbob Posts: 699
    Adelaide Hills
    Performance Poster Ratbob
    13 Mar 2019 06:40 AM
    Hi Muzza, thanks for the update, I reckon there’s plenty of guys wanting to see the results you get with the Kessteck system, hope it goes well. 
    Excuse my ignorance I think the stock ECM is fine but why would you remove the FP3 and the heavy breather, can’t the breather stay?

    Also you mentioned you “will drive the flapper valve in a single BR pipe probably the top pipe then move to the bottom pipe.” I’m thinking on stock pipes the flapper sits after the balance pipe so gases from both cylinders are vented through a single muffler. As you know the stock mufflers run different size oriffices for that purpose. So with the BR you’ll need to create the silencing affect by way of constriction only. 
    I don’t want to tread on your project but maybe the first step could be to mock up two fake flappers by cutting two discs to size, welding a nut at each side and mounting them in the BR by way of a longer screw used to hold in the BR baffles. (See the last pic I posted) This way you could tilt the discs manually (leaveing the heat shields off for ease during the testing) and see if you get a suitable drop in dB. 
    If it doesn’t work you’ll save a shit load of work and without the need to cut up your BR. As the exhaust will be mostly blocked, you’ll have easy access to work out how many holes might be needed to maintain a good flow within your desired dB rating. Or maybe establish what angle to have the flaps at idle without drilling. I reckon if you weld in the active exhaust valve without this type of testing it’ll be a bugger to drill/adjust if needed. Wadayareckon?
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