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  • VirtualT Posts: 278
    Yanchep
    Stage 1 Poster VirtualT
    04 Jan 2019 05:46 PM
    Quoting Retroman on 04 Jan 2019 04:55 PM

    Well fitted up the Compensator upgrade kit 40100061. Had to remove the inner primary ( Khant of a job which is why many folks grind the primary case below the stator.

    As the bike is a 2008 the original stator needed to be replaced with the one in the kit

    All seemed to go smooth , used the more modern alloy primary cover with the built in "Oil splash tray"

    Started it up , small run , not too smooth and CLUNK when shutting off. WTF ? $635 Aussie dollars worth of parts and it's worse ?

    Also noisy as before while riding , whistley/whirring and the odd occasional clunk. that was yesterday.

    Internet search last night until midnight , whipped it open again today , put an extra dish spring in ( as suggested in other forums etc etc )

    Another 2 hour job after cleanup etc etc...STILL NOISY AND CLUNKLY on shutdown and whirring on the move.

    Yes sounds just like a bad primary as in all the youtube videos.

    Next stripdown this coming Sunday maybe The indy shop is going to try another younger part number kit that only has the hardware , no rotor required.

    We'll see how that goes. Struggling to imagine what may be the problem to be honest ?

    Ahha, I was talking to you today at stueys I didnt know that was you lol
  • VirtualT Posts: 278
    Yanchep
    Stage 1 Poster VirtualT
    04 Jan 2019 06:01 PM
    Quoting Retroman on 04 Jan 2019 04:55 PM

    Well fitted up the Compensator upgrade kit 40100061. Had to remove the inner primary ( Khant of a job which is why many folks grind the primary case below the stator.

    As the bike is a 2008 the original stator needed to be replaced with the one in the kit

    All seemed to go smooth , used the more modern alloy primary cover with the built in "Oil splash tray"

    Started it up , small run , not too smooth and CLUNK when shutting off. WTF ? $635 Aussie dollars worth of parts and it's worse ?

    Also noisy as before while riding , whistley/whirring and the odd occasional clunk. that was yesterday.

    Internet search last night until midnight , whipped it open again today , put an extra dish spring in ( as suggested in other forums etc etc )

    Another 2 hour job after cleanup etc etc...STILL NOISY AND CLUNKLY on shutdown and whirring on the move.

    Yes sounds just like a bad primary as in all the youtube videos.

    Next stripdown this coming Sunday maybe The indy shop is going to try another younger part number kit that only has the hardware , no rotor required.

    We'll see how that goes. Struggling to imagine what may be the problem to be honest ?

    So.. the bits that have come out, was there noticeable wear or degradation?
    The comp I pulled out of the street glide you could see a mile away was fucked the ramps were worn right down and you could see where it had been hammering.
  • Retroman Posts: 979
    The far west
    Performance Poster Retroman
    04 Jan 2019 06:15 PM

    Funnily enough no !

    Only the slightest wear was evident on the original 2008 OEM ramps etc. The "spring pack" had lost tension , but of course they are "peened in" and do not seem to be replaceable/updateable.

    That original unit lasted 38000 K's in a torquey 110. Very little and/or NO clunking in the OEM parts , or not yet. 4000 K's oil changes helped there I'm sure

    Stu and I were talking at length about the Baker compensator with the oil scoop design. I have read in the US of spacing dramas with them Re the chain and sprockets and getting the alignment correct. Stators etc having to be shaved etc etc. That is why I decided to try the SE compensator kit actually

    That's is where I will be going next if this "updated update" of a kit don't work Sunday...Stu has enquired already as to supply logistics

  • ralphski Posts: 949
    NE Foothills, ADELAIDE
    Performance Poster ralphski
    04 Jan 2019 08:41 PM
    Quoting Retroman on 04 Jan 2019 04:55 PM

    Well fitted up the Compensator upgrade kit 40100061. Had to remove the inner primary ( Khant of a job which is why many folks grind the primary case below the stator.

    As the bike is a 2008 the original stator needed to be replaced with the one in the kit

    All seemed to go smooth , used the more modern alloy primary cover with the built in "Oil splash tray"

    Started it up , small run , not too smooth and CLUNK when shutting off. WTF ? $635 Aussie dollars worth of parts and it's worse ?

    Also noisy as before while riding , whistley/whirring and the odd occasional clunk. that was yesterday.

    Internet search last night until midnight , whipped it open again today , put an extra dish spring in ( as suggested in other forums etc etc )

    Another 2 hour job after cleanup etc etc...STILL NOISY AND CLUNKLY on shutdown and whirring on the move.

    Yes sounds just like a bad primary as in all the youtube videos.

    Next stripdown this coming Sunday maybe The indy shop is going to try another younger part number kit that only has the hardware , no rotor required.

    We'll see how that goes. Struggling to imagine what may be the problem to be honest ?

    if you checked the alignment and the chain is in good condition, there couldn't be too many things to check.
    auto or manual tensioner ?
  • Retroman Posts: 979
    The far west
    Performance Poster Retroman
    04 Jan 2019 09:24 PM
    Original OEM auto chain tensioner. Seemed ok we reckoned. Got me scratching my head ?
  • Retroman Posts: 979
    The far west
    Performance Poster Retroman
    06 Jan 2019 06:19 PM

  • perthhog Posts: 1576
    Motor Head perthhog
    06 Jan 2019 06:32 PM
    Quoting Retroman on 06 Jan 2019 06:19 PM

    Thinking  ?? lol
  • Retroman Posts: 979
    The far west
    Performance Poster Retroman
    06 Jan 2019 06:34 PM

    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"


  • paulybronco Posts: 10704
    Forum Legend paulybronco
    06 Jan 2019 06:56 PM
    The suspense is killing me.....
  • steelo Posts: 2136
    Adelaide
    Motor Head steelo
    06 Jan 2019 07:19 PM
    How can we compensate you PB?
  • paulybronco Posts: 10704
    Forum Legend paulybronco
    06 Jan 2019 08:11 PM
    Quoting steelo on 06 Jan 2019 07:19 PM
    How can we compensate you PB?
    Ummm ....thinking
  • VirtualT Posts: 278
    Yanchep
    Stage 1 Poster VirtualT
    06 Jan 2019 08:59 PM
    Quoting Retroman on 06 Jan 2019 06:34 PMedited: 06 Jan 2019 06:50 PM

    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"


    seems to be working here

    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"
    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"
    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"
    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"
    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"
    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"
    Why won't "cut and paste" work to the site any more ?

    Trying to paste in the latest updates on my compensator "saga"


  • Retroman Posts: 979
    The far west
    Performance Poster Retroman
    06 Jan 2019 10:10 PM

    Cut and paste she no workee for me. May be my computer BUT it works on other forums and elsewhere like email etc etc

    Got home from the Indy shop today having taken out the 401000601 spring/sprocket pack. ( left the rotor that came with this pack in !)

    Measured it up against the spring/sprocket pack from the 42200064A kit and it ( sliding cam ) was 90 thou/2.3 mm less "height/length" !!

    One kit manufactured 6 months after the other , with of course "superceded parts" it would appear..

    VERY careful reassembly , reamed out the old threads with a 9/16 tap to shift the old Loctite , spray with throttle body cleaner then compressed air ( all we had to hand )

    Torque-o rama to 175 Ft/Lbs , Roadtest and CLUNK gone. No more snatching in gear and no rumble/clunk when throttling off.

    Some whistling/chattering still (but I may be overthinking that now). Bike will now go into 6th at 85Km/H

    Hopefully the whistling will settle or bed in , and I will change the oil again in 200 K's looking for swarf on the plug and metal gloss in the oil.


  • perthhog Posts: 1576
    Motor Head perthhog
    10 Jan 2019 11:04 AM
    Good outcome retro 
  • Retroman Posts: 979
    The far west
    Performance Poster Retroman
    10 Jan 2019 12:08 PM

    Well , 220 K's on , some in reasonably hot weather , I changed to primary oil ( again !) , and the extra powerful magnet sump plug ( S&S I believe) had just a few wee mini shards of metal , "normal" would be the diagnosis. Oil fairly clear of metallic sheen thankfully. I bought a bunch of those sump plugs from Rollies in QLD a few years back.

    Changed from HD Formula+ to "Genuine Suzuki" fully synthetic Ecstar 10W40 as I had some left from servicing the last Japper ( GSX 1300 ) and wanted to try fully synthetic to see if any difference over the Formula+. Opinions vary on "what oil yada yada", but CVO's came from new with HD SYN 3 and I don't keep that on the shelf.

    There is still I am assuming Spring pack noise , some fixes appear to be replacing the thin roller bearing with a new thicker Thrust washer from HD part # 6557.

    I have that ordered from the local HD dealer , $14 it will stay on the shelf for now and I will see how I go.OR fit another small Belleville spring in the spring pack OR both !

    Another stripdown to do all that of course , and I am trying to avoid that. I have reused the same primary gasket each build , seems to be holding up thankfully

    A cooler day today , to be "only" 27C , perfect day for Harley riding actually ( apologies to those in the Northern hemisphere !). So it will get another wee test run

  • Hoodeng Posts: 151
    Stock Poster Hoodeng
    10 Jan 2019 02:24 PM
    The early SE compensator had the thrust washer , the upgrade went to the thrust needle roller bearing and guided oil supply to in part correct oil starvation in the sprocket and sprocket retainer interface, putting the rigid washer back in might restrict the flow of oil through this area and possibly add stiction.
    Ret ,do you  see an advantage in going back to the washer?

    It is very unusual for chain alignment to be out with the comp sprocket being out further than the clutch sprocket , but it can happen . What was the offset differential when you measured it ? The three seal spacers used with a Timken conversion are .905".990" and 1.095" respectively ,they are model specific ,if this upgrade has been done the spacer specified will almost always need shimming between the spacer and inner spline collar  to get correct chain alignment.
    Bellville washers  ,usually once the spec preload on them diminishes or for some reason the preload was not as prescribed they can diminish in effect over time till they rattle, I have not seen a spring pack loaded pressure setting printed in any manual so i did a rough test using my old  07 Dyna pack ,it shows 300lb preload at .045" compression, and that one is worn, another .040" compression gave 600lb preload force, so a test to see what the original preload is would be advisable so the original intent of the compensator is maintained.Shimming may lock the thing up.
    As for magnets , i buy mine from a mob called 'AMF Magnetic Force' in Sydney , in bulk ,i get 1/4" x 1/2" 'rare earth' @ $1.60 or so each,  and fit them to pretty well anything that does not already have a magnetic plug in it.

    Cheers.
    HD Forums Australia - DSC09537.JPG

  • Retroman Posts: 979
    The far west
    Performance Poster Retroman
    10 Jan 2019 02:47 PM
    Quoting Hoodeng on 10 Jan 2019 02:24 PM
    The early SE compensator had the thrust washer , the upgrade went to the thrust needle roller bearing and guided oil supply to in part correct oil starvation in the sprocket and sprocket retainer interface, putting the rigid washer back in might restrict the flow of oil through this area and possibly add stiction.
    Ret ,do you  see an advantage in going back to the washer?

    It is very unusual for chain alignment to be out with the comp sprocket being out further than the clutch sprocket , but it can happen . What was the offset differential when you measured it ? The three seal spacers used with a Timken conversion are .905".990" and 1.095" respectively ,they are model specific ,if this upgrade has been done the spacer specified will almost always need shimming between the spacer and inner spline collar  to get correct chain alignment.
    Bellville washers  ,usually once the spec preload on them diminishes or for some reason the preload was not as prescribed they can diminish in effect over time till they rattle, I have not seen a spring pack loaded pressure setting printed in any manual so i did a rough test using my old  07 Dyna pack ,it shows 300lb preload at .045" compression, and that one is worn, another .040" compression gave 600lb preload force, so a test to see what the original preload is would be advisable so the original intent of the compensator is maintained.Shimming may lock the thing up.
    As for magnets , i buy mine from a mob called 'AMF Magnetic Force' in Sydney , in bulk ,i get 1/4" x 1/2" 'rare earth' @ $1.60 or so each,  and fit them to pretty well anything that does not already have a magnetic plug in it.

    Cheers.
    HD Forums Australia - DSC09537.JPG

    Thanks Hoodeng for that detailed help/reply

    The idea of going "back" to the thick thrust washer came out of the US where a few have tried that.

    Also the "extra" spring insert came from US Forum sources.

    Chain alignment did cross my mind , but other than a good "visual check" where it all looked OK it was not measured.

    The setup in your photo looks like the "original OEM" setup that I took out I think , where the springpack is part of the rotor effectively ?

    What was different in the "slider cam" from both kits is the earlier kit had no machined grooves and was 90 thou "shorter" measured vertically

    The slightly later kit ( 6 months !) had the machined Grooves and taller ( 90 thou 2.3mm) slider cam.

    Quote : ALL CVO VEHICLES HAVE A NEW SLIDER CAM BUT DO NOT USE SHIMS

    Quote : THESE CHANGES DO NOT APPEAR IN THE 2014 PARTS CATALOGS OR SERVICE MANUALS

    (This is from scammed dealer service bulletins that kind folks in the US have pointed me in the direction of !)

    I do believe that there have been 5 revisions of the SE Compensator over the last 5 or 6 years.

  • Hoodeng Posts: 151
    Stock Poster Hoodeng
    10 Jan 2019 04:07 PM
    Yes ,it is the early compensator with the spring pack housing welded to the rotor.

    Get your chain alignment as true as possible , .010" maximum if you can't get it better .Shims would have to go between the sprocket shaft spacer and the alternator inner so as not to upset compensator preload.

    As i have just found the increase of just .040" will add 300lb to the preload , i wonder if guys have been "fixing" their rattle by pretty well locking the compensator together.

    As i can not find any preload specs as far as a new compensator is concerned i would be interested in doing a test to see what the initial preload is , have a dig Ret and see if your sources can shed any light on this.We need preload poundage @ recommended spring set height.

    Interestingly the early SAE ten spline sprocket shaft was 7/8"UNF and the late 24 spline retaining bolt is 7/16 UNC, both are 14tpi so the feel on tightening would be pretty much the same.

    Cheers.
  • ralphski Posts: 949
    NE Foothills, ADELAIDE
    Performance Poster ralphski
    10 Jan 2019 05:34 PM
    Quoting Hoodeng on 10 Jan 2019 04:07 PM
    Yes ,it is the early compensator with the spring pack housing welded to the rotor.

    Get your chain alignment as true as possible , .010" maximum if you can't get it better .Shims would have to go between the sprocket shaft spacer and the alternator inner so as not to upset compensator preload.

    As i have just found the increase of just .040" will add 300lb to the preload , i wonder if guys have been "fixing" their rattle by pretty well locking the compensator together.

    As i can not find any preload specs as far as a new compensator is concerned i would be interested in doing a test to see what the initial preload is , have a dig Ret and see if your sources can shed any light on this.We need preload poundage @ recommended spring set height.

    Interestingly the early SAE ten spline sprocket shaft was 7/8"UNF and the late 24 spline retaining bolt is 7/16 UNC, both are 14tpi so the feel on tightening would be pretty much the same.

    Cheers.
    fck Hoody,  .010"  only done my with a straight edge. Pretty sure i got it close by eye.
    also, i would MUCH rather the 7/8" UNF to a 7/16" UNC
  • Hoodeng Posts: 151
    Stock Poster Hoodeng
    10 Jan 2019 05:55 PM
    I do mine with a straight edge and vernier as per the shovel evo method, had to put in .015"-.020" . I have run out of the 1.250" x 1.750" x .010"/.005" hardened shims and just back ordered them then.
    You would think the old 7/8" would be better that the later 7/16" but i have seen early compensator nuts filled with and bottomed out on Loctite others have been rattled up that tight i have machined whats left of the hex off in  the mill to get it off .There has been instances of the later fastener coming loose ,i would say from poor installation .I install a new fastener each time the compensator has been off which has been only twice ,first time was when the early SE compensator was installed at the rebuild ,the second time was when i installed the manual chain adjuster which was when i found the compesator had been galling and replaced it.

    Cheers.
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