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Minimizing risk, maximizing enjoyment

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  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    philosophical theory as to why some riders may have less accidents 

    Understanding
    why you ride is essential to evaluating your behaviour as a rider, and therefore your risk profile and accepting your chances of an accident. I am tired of hearing the stock platitudes "There are two types of rider, those who have gone down and those who haven't yet gone down"  or  'Everyone drops the bike or has an accident at some stage, what makes a rider is his ability to get back on" I have a theory that possibly explains why some riders never have had or will have an accident. 

    Experience and skill can help you avoid serious trouble in real time, as the accident unfolds. Not panicking on the front brakes, being prepared to lean harder into a corner using counter steer, while focusing on the point where you want the bike to go, or knowing when to drop the bike at the optimum time in a low-side slide. Experience also builds up a wealth of subliminal knowledge of possible traffic hazards which helps avoid accidents  and conditions you to longer periods of concentration to be able to act on that knowledge and store new experiences.

    Humans are innately concerned with their survival and act in those interests , and in our down time our brains like the effects of Dopamine , and encourage us seek activities that generate dopamine. Some people are fortunate enough to get it through being an athlete, while others get it through risk taking, and the lazy get it through drug use, or gambling or sexual perversions. My theory is that we fall into the risk taking category. We understand the risk of two wheels, we are used to being different in some way socially, we value the reward over the risk and we accept the calculation, we are not afraid of standing out from the crowd, we value our individuality and our independence. We also know that people in our circles benefit from our presence and company. because we are happy when we ride, and come back home, everyone benefits.

    Understanding your enjoyment of dopamine, can help you understand why you ride. My theory is if you treat the motorcycle like a pharmacist , you can modulate your dopamine levels, and gain the maximum enjoyment from life. If you over use it then your risk taking increases in order for your brain to get the same effect. 

     
  • Wideglider
    Wideglider
    5 years ago
    Quoting Moss on 03 Mar 2019 11:13 AM

    philosophical theory as to why some riders may have less accidents 

    Understanding
    why you ride is essential to evaluating your behaviour as a rider, and therefore your risk profile and accepting your chances of an accident. I am tired of hearing the stock platitudes "There are two types of rider, those who have gone down and those who haven't yet gone down"  or  'Everyone drops the bike or has an accident at some stage, what makes a rider is his ability to get back on" I have a theory that possibly explains why some riders never have had or will have an accident. 

    Experience and skill can help you avoid serious trouble in real time, as the accident unfolds. Not panicking on the front brakes, being prepared to lean harder into a corner using counter steer, while focusing on the point where you want the bike to go, or knowing when to drop the bike at the optimum time in a low-side slide. Experience also builds up a wealth of subliminal knowledge of possible traffic hazards which helps avoid accidents  and conditions you to longer periods of concentration to be able to act on that knowledge and store new experiences.

    Humans are innately concerned with their survival and act in those interests , and in our down time our brains like the effects of Dopamine , and encourage us seek activities that generate dopamine. Some people are fortunate enough to get it through being an athlete, while others get it through risk taking, and the lazy get it through drug use, or gambling or sexual perversions. My theory is that we fall into the risk taking category. We understand the risk of two wheels, we are used to being different in some way socially, we value the reward over the risk and we accept the calculation, we are not afraid of standing out from the crowd, we value our individuality and our independence. We also know that people in our circles benefit from our presence and company. because we are happy when we ride, and come back home, everyone benefits.

    Understanding your enjoyment of dopamine, can help you understand why you ride. My theory is if you treat the motorcycle like a pharmacist , you can modulate your dopamine levels, and gain the maximum enjoyment from life. If you over use it then your risk taking increases in order for your brain to get the same effect. 


     

    "or knowing when to drop the bike at the optimum time in a low-side slide"  ?? That ol' chestnut! Anyone who does this is already having their accident! Personally I believe in using the brakes rather than sliding under the truck.
    The rest of your thoughts - Interesting views, sure bikes are a real thrill, but when actually riding I tend not to overthink it.     
  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    Thanks for the link to the blog. He is an experienced, lifelong rider who admits that he has had multiple crashes, and that 90+% of all riders would not have been able to avoid this accident  https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/viral-video-could-this-crash-have-been-avoided. One of his main points is that panic braking may come from not being mentally prepared to find an escape route first, or believing that a low-side slide is an option. You and he make the point that it should not be in the back of your mind as an option, but rather finding the escape route and committing to it. The only way he  could have avoided that accident is if the rider he was following indicated there was a dog, by flashing his brake lights or putting up a hand. It's an interesting lesson in mindfulness, being aware of others as well as yourself. There are advantages to riding in a group, but also added commitments. 

    This is from a 2008 Federal government report
    "Over the last ten years, the total decrease in risk in terms of deaths per vehicle-kilometre (VKT) for
    car occupants has been approximately 20% (4.3 deaths per billion VKT in 1998 and 3.9 in 2007).
    For motorcyclists, no improvement in safety has been observed (116.4 deaths per billion VKT in
    1998 and 116.9 in 2007).
    An analysis of the age distribution of motorcyclists killed shows that over the last ten years, riders
    aged over 44 years accounted for most of the annual increase in deaths.
    A large proportion of fatal motorcycle crashes occur during weekends. Also, on any day of the
    week, most fatal crashes occur during the middle to late afternoon period (2.00 pm to 6.00 pm).
    These facts suggest that a significant proportion of fatal motorcycle crashes are associated with
    recreational riding rather than commuting.
    Approximately 20 per cent of motorcyclists killed do not have a valid motorcycle licence. Of all
    riders killed, 10 per cent were not wearing a helmet and 20 per cent were wearing an incorrectly
    fitted helmet" 

    The takeaway point is that 30% of all motorbike road deaths in Australia involved no helmet or incorrect fitting of one
  • leachy
    leachy
    5 years ago
    I also believe that the majority of motor cycle accidents don't involve any other vehicles. 
  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    Quoting leachy on 04 Mar 2019 04:42 AM

    I also believe that the majority of motor cycle accidents don't involve any other vehicles. 

    These are the statistics for Victoria 2018

    Of the 38 motorcyclists who lost their lives in 2018: 
    36 were male
    53% of motorcyclist lives were lost in metro Victoria.
    65% of these deaths occurred on roads with a speed limit of 80km/h or more
    68% were involved in crashes between the hours of 10am and 6pm
    71% of all motorcyclist lives were lost on roads sign posted at 80km/h or more
    78% of rural crashes occurred on 80km/h roads
    47% died in single vehicle crashes, 24% were involved in head on or overtaking crashes and 13% were involved in crashes with another vehicle at an intersection

    For every fatality there are  40 major motorcycle accident  traumas requiring two or more weeks in hospital in Victoria.

    Those numbers keep me focused every time I ride. I see myself as completely interchangeable with those statistics. I don't ever want to get complacent.  They are all people I would like , and share the same love of riding with. It is a sad state of affairs that riding motorcycles is as dangerous as it is.  
  • leachy
    leachy
    5 years ago
    In 25 years of riding I have been part of or seen two people die on the side of the road. In both cases it was completely their own fault, in both cases they were just going way to fast. 
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Ride like everyone is trying to kill you all the time. Don't overthink it just enjoy it or your going to die of stress worrying about
  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    Quoting leachy on 04 Mar 2019 05:31 AM

    In 25 years of riding I have been part of or seen two people die on the side of the road. In both cases it was completely their own fault, in both cases they were just going way to fast. 

    Speed seems so obvious to control, like alcohol. Anything under your control seems the obvious start to minimizing risk. The three main risk areas beyond our control are t-intersections (including driveways, shopping centres) , lane changes and animals. I have read that animals account for 7% of all motorcycle accidents. Lane changes especially by trucks, as their blind spot is larger, can be helped with loud pipes, and predictive defensive riding. Animals can be minimized by not riding open B and C roads at night, and being aware of activity at dawn and dusk. That leaves T-intersections. 
    If a car is not fully stopped before pulling out, the driver blind spot is active. We can use lane positions to our advantage, increasing the angle of visibility from the drivers perspective by moving as close to the outside lane as possible. And then we can also minimize our risk by vbeing as visible to the driver as possible. Loud pipes again help, lighting and size of bike, contrasting clothing or helmet.
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting leachy on 04 Mar 2019 05:31 AM

    In 25 years of riding I have been part of or seen two people die on the side of the road. In both cases it was completely their own fault, in both cases they were just going way to fast. 

    Quoting Moss on 04 Mar 2019 07:51 AM

    Speed seems so obvious to control, like alcohol. Anything under your control seems the obvious start to minimizing risk. The three main risk areas beyond our control are t-intersections (including driveways, shopping centres) , lane changes and animals. I have read that animals account for 7% of all motorcycle accidents. Lane changes especially by trucks, as their blind spot is larger, can be helped with loud pipes, and predictive defensive riding. Animals can be minimized by not riding open B and C roads at night, and being aware of activity at dawn and dusk. That leaves T-intersections. 
    If a car is not fully stopped before pulling out, the driver blind spot is active. We can use lane positions to our advantage, increasing the angle of visibility from the drivers perspective by moving as close to the outside lane as possible. And then we can also minimize our risk by vbeing as visible to the driver as possible. Loud pipes again help, lighting and size of bike, contrasting clothing or helmet.

    You ride a bike Moss?
  • beaglebasher
    beaglebasher
    5 years ago
    I was out on the bike yesterday and to my surprise I noticed I had developed half a mongrel!
    What does this mean Mossy?   In your philosophical opinion.
  • keith
    keith
    5 years ago

    Over cooking here Moss, sometimes shit happens also. Handy to read your date DOB now and then puts ambitions and capability's into prospective straight up, followed by decision making.


  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    Quoting beaglebasher on 04 Mar 2019 08:01 AMedited: 04 Mar 2019 08:03 AM

    I was out on the bike yesterday and to my surprise I noticed I had developed half a mongrel!
    What does this mean Mossy?   In your philosophical opinion.

    Excessive vibrations ? lol
  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    Quoting keith on 04 Mar 2019 08:01 AM

    Over cooking here Moss, sometimes shit happens also. Handy to read your date DOB now and then puts ambitions and capability's into prospective straight up, followed by decision making.


    I fit the highest risk profile. It's in my interest to overcook it. That is my dopamine pleasure. Every time I ride I beat the statistics.
  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    Quoting leachy on 04 Mar 2019 05:31 AM

    In 25 years of riding I have been part of or seen two people die on the side of the road. In both cases it was completely their own fault, in both cases they were just going way to fast. 

    Quoting Moss on 04 Mar 2019 07:51 AM

    Speed seems so obvious to control, like alcohol. Anything under your control seems the obvious start to minimizing risk. The three main risk areas beyond our control are t-intersections (including driveways, shopping centres) , lane changes and animals. I have read that animals account for 7% of all motorcycle accidents. Lane changes especially by trucks, as their blind spot is larger, can be helped with loud pipes, and predictive defensive riding. Animals can be minimized by not riding open B and C roads at night, and being aware of activity at dawn and dusk. That leaves T-intersections. 
    If a car is not fully stopped before pulling out, the driver blind spot is active. We can use lane positions to our advantage, increasing the angle of visibility from the drivers perspective by moving as close to the outside lane as possible. And then we can also minimize our risk by vbeing as visible to the driver as possible. Loud pipes again help, lighting and size of bike, contrasting clothing or helmet.

    Quoting paulybronco on 04 Mar 2019 07:52 AM

    You ride a bike Moss?

    40 years on and off. But I fit the classic description of highest risk rider. Age 40-59. Been off the bike for twenty years, and back on for twelve months. And now bought the one classic style of bike that 40-59 year olds have the most accidents on, a bagger. It arrives tomorrow. And in four weeks I'm taking it to Sydney.
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting Moss on 04 Mar 2019 07:51 AM

    Speed seems so obvious to control, like alcohol. Anything under your control seems the obvious start to minimizing risk. The three main risk areas beyond our control are t-intersections (including driveways, shopping centres) , lane changes and animals. I have read that animals account for 7% of all motorcycle accidents. Lane changes especially by trucks, as their blind spot is larger, can be helped with loud pipes, and predictive defensive riding. Animals can be minimized by not riding open B and C roads at night, and being aware of activity at dawn and dusk. That leaves T-intersections. 
    If a car is not fully stopped before pulling out, the driver blind spot is active. We can use lane positions to our advantage, increasing the angle of visibility from the drivers perspective by moving as close to the outside lane as possible. And then we can also minimize our risk by vbeing as visible to the driver as possible. Loud pipes again help, lighting and size of bike, contrasting clothing or helmet.

    Quoting paulybronco on 04 Mar 2019 07:52 AM

    You ride a bike Moss?

    Quoting Moss on 04 Mar 2019 08:38 AMedited: 04 Mar 2019 08:41 AM

    40 years on and off. But I fit the classic description of highest risk rider. Age 40-59. Been off the bike for twenty years, and back on for twelve months. And now bought the one classic style of bike that 40-59 year olds have the most accidents on, a bagger. It arrives tomorrow. And in four weeks I'm taking it to Sydney.

    Well here's some suggestions....do an advanced riders course just to get the hand eye co ordination and the theory of  what your doing . And relax! Enjoy your bike, be alert not alarmed. You dont have to mico dissect every area of a bike that may kill you, head out into the countryside and don't fear that the odds may claim you. Can you point me in the direction of the bagger stats would love to see the article
  • Wideglider
    Wideglider
    5 years ago
    Yes, as I said originally, don't overthink it  - or you will come back more stressed after a ride. 
    You quote a lot of statistics, one statistic analysis not even studied is the moron factor. Some guys are right up there in the high risk whether they ride, drive, run, walk or swim! No amount of nanny-state rules will save them (although the nanny-state will keep on trying).  
    I suppose I only ride with one rule, ride with the presumption that cars/trucks can't see you - pretend your invisible.
    Talking about being invisible - when I'm driving, the amount of riders (or drivers) who decide to sit in my blind-spot, WTF? Do they not learn not to do this when applying for a licence? When I friend of mine's son just got his motorcycle 'L's - this was one thing I told him to be aware of.       
  • Far Canal
    Far Canal
    5 years ago
    Quoting Moss on 03 Mar 2019 11:13 AM

    philosophical theory as to why some riders may have less accidents 

    Understanding
    why you ride is essential to evaluating your behaviour as a rider, and therefore your risk profile and accepting your chances of an accident. I am tired of hearing the stock platitudes "There are two types of rider, those who have gone down and those who haven't yet gone down"  or  'Everyone drops the bike or has an accident at some stage, what makes a rider is his ability to get back on" I have a theory that possibly explains why some riders never have had or will have an accident. 

    Experience and skill can help you avoid serious trouble in real time, as the accident unfolds. Not panicking on the front brakes, being prepared to lean harder into a corner using counter steer, while focusing on the point where you want the bike to go, or knowing when to drop the bike at the optimum time in a low-side slide. Experience also builds up a wealth of subliminal knowledge of possible traffic hazards which helps avoid accidents  and conditions you to longer periods of concentration to be able to act on that knowledge and store new experiences.

    Humans are innately concerned with their survival and act in those interests , and in our down time our brains like the effects of Dopamine , and encourage us seek activities that generate dopamine. Some people are fortunate enough to get it through being an athlete, while others get it through risk taking, and the lazy get it through drug use, or gambling or sexual perversions. My theory is that we fall into the risk taking category. We understand the risk of two wheels, we are used to being different in some way socially, we value the reward over the risk and we accept the calculation, we are not afraid of standing out from the crowd, we value our individuality and our independence. We also know that people in our circles benefit from our presence and company. because we are happy when we ride, and come back home, everyone benefits.

    Understanding your enjoyment of dopamine, can help you understand why you ride. My theory is if you treat the motorcycle like a pharmacist , you can modulate your dopamine levels, and gain the maximum enjoyment from life. If you over use it then your risk taking increases in order for your brain to get the same effect. 


     

    I have never seen a stranger post than this on this forum.
    "Treat the motorcycle like a pharmacist" ?.
    I'd rather treat my pharmacist like a motorcycle.


  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    Quoting paulybronco on 04 Mar 2019 07:52 AM

    You ride a bike Moss?

    Quoting Moss on 04 Mar 2019 08:38 AMedited: 04 Mar 2019 08:41 AM

    40 years on and off. But I fit the classic description of highest risk rider. Age 40-59. Been off the bike for twenty years, and back on for twelve months. And now bought the one classic style of bike that 40-59 year olds have the most accidents on, a bagger. It arrives tomorrow. And in four weeks I'm taking it to Sydney.

    Quoting paulybronco on 04 Mar 2019 09:01 AM

    Well here's some suggestions....do an advanced riders course just to get the hand eye co ordination and the theory of  what your doing . And relax! Enjoy your bike, be alert not alarmed. You dont have to mico dissect every area of a bike that may kill you, head out into the countryside and don't fear that the odds may claim you. Can you point me in the direction of the bagger stats would love to see the article

    Good advice. The advanced riders course is on the list. I also spend a fair bit of time practicing small maneuvers in vacant car parks, and looking at rider skills courses on YouTube.  MCRider , Jerry palladino and FastEddy . I can't find where I read about older males and baggers/cruisers.  And I can't find any data supporting it. All I can find is the TAC data on males 40-59 being the largest risk group

    https://www.tac.vic.gov.au/road-safety/statistics/summaries/motorcycle-crash-data/motorcyclist-age-group-and-gender-data
  • Moss
    Moss
    5 years ago
    @ Far Canal
    hahaha
    That is very clever
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting Moss on 03 Mar 2019 11:13 AM

    philosophical theory as to why some riders may have less accidents 

    Understanding
    why you ride is essential to evaluating your behaviour as a rider, and therefore your risk profile and accepting your chances of an accident. I am tired of hearing the stock platitudes "There are two types of rider, those who have gone down and those who haven't yet gone down"  or  'Everyone drops the bike or has an accident at some stage, what makes a rider is his ability to get back on" I have a theory that possibly explains why some riders never have had or will have an accident. 

    Experience and skill can help you avoid serious trouble in real time, as the accident unfolds. Not panicking on the front brakes, being prepared to lean harder into a corner using counter steer, while focusing on the point where you want the bike to go, or knowing when to drop the bike at the optimum time in a low-side slide. Experience also builds up a wealth of subliminal knowledge of possible traffic hazards which helps avoid accidents  and conditions you to longer periods of concentration to be able to act on that knowledge and store new experiences.

    Humans are innately concerned with their survival and act in those interests , and in our down time our brains like the effects of Dopamine , and encourage us seek activities that generate dopamine. Some people are fortunate enough to get it through being an athlete, while others get it through risk taking, and the lazy get it through drug use, or gambling or sexual perversions. My theory is that we fall into the risk taking category. We understand the risk of two wheels, we are used to being different in some way socially, we value the reward over the risk and we accept the calculation, we are not afraid of standing out from the crowd, we value our individuality and our independence. We also know that people in our circles benefit from our presence and company. because we are happy when we ride, and come back home, everyone benefits.

    Understanding your enjoyment of dopamine, can help you understand why you ride. My theory is if you treat the motorcycle like a pharmacist , you can modulate your dopamine levels, and gain the maximum enjoyment from life. If you over use it then your risk taking increases in order for your brain to get the same effect. 


     

    Quoting Far Canal on 04 Mar 2019 10:07 AM

    I have never seen a stranger post than this on this forum.
    "Treat the motorcycle like a pharmacist" ?.
    I'd rather treat my pharmacist like a motorcycle.


    Lovely earings dont you think?
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