Help pls! - need some advice with EFI tune

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Help pls! - need some advice with EFI tune

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noctm
4 years ago

G'day all,
Some context: I got my current bike about a year ago. It was running okay, but was noticeably rich, had decel popping, was shit on fuel/k's (~250-280 per tank), and would surge when I closed the throttle. About a month ago, the previous owner located and provided me with the SE tuner. I checked what tune it had on there, and it was a custom dyno map. I saved that tune, and put on the standard map for the bike's specs. Aside from a couple of flat/dead spots between 1500 & 2500, the bike ran much better with no surging, or decel popping, and the fuel economy was better by about 50-60 extra k's to the tank, and i didn't notice much difference performance wise either. HOWEVER, the flat spot down low is doing my head in.

So i began to experiment - I grabbed the AFR and VE tables from the custom dyno map, and placed it over the top of the canned map and left everything else alone (timing, accel & decel enrichment/enleanment etc.). It had a pretty good result, the bike was running great, the flat/dead spot was gone, the decel pop didn't come back and neither did the surging, but it's definitely running too rich and i lost the increased/expected fuel economy again. So half way there.

What I want to know and is where my EFI tuning knowledge becomes a little more limited - I want to combine the best of the two tunes.
EG: Can I keep the custom tune's VE tables while using the canned maps AFR table? Or is there too much variation because there's quite a bit of a difference between the two tune's AFR tables, and VE tables.

See below:

Canned Map AFR:

Canned Map VE Front:

Canned Map VE Rear:

Dyno Map AFR:

Dyno Map VE Front:

Dyno Map VE Rear:

And here's the two maps spark setups:

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

If it was legitimately dynotuned and nothing on the bike has been changed then the custom VE's should be right, forget the timing for now, the custom AFR table is old school rich, no closed loop, if you change that table to a better format you will keep all the good stuff including economy, hunt you up one to copy if you want, too much typing on here, pm me your email and I'll send a cal with it tonight, that way you can copy paste that table, I don't care if you post it up after that if anyone wants to see it.

noctm
4 years ago

Much appreciated mate. So you're basically saying I can use the dyno'd maps VE tables, with a better/less rich AFR table and it should be okay? I wasn't sure of the relationship between the two, as I was considering just using the canned map AFR with the dyno map's VE.

I'll PM you my email now - keen to see your AFR table for sure. Thanks again

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

The canned AFR is a little lean in spots I reckon.

noctm
4 years ago

Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Jun 2019 09:15 AM
The canned AFR is a little lean in spots I reckon.

I 100% agree, was thinking of decreasing it a few steps but am keen to see what you have for me - no rush/stress I will await your email.
PS. I have changed the pipes from V&H big shot staggered (2-1-2) to Cobra el diablo (2-1) since the bike was dyno'd - however I haven't noticed any impact on the tune/bike behaviour with this change, hopefully the custom VE tables are still appropriate.

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Jun 2019 09:15 AM
The canned AFR is a little lean in spots I reckon.

Quoting noctm on 04 Jun 2019 09:18 AM
I 100% agree, was thinking of decreasing it a few steps but am keen to see what you have for me - no rush/stress I will await your email.
PS. I have changed the pipes from V&H big shot staggered (2-1-2) to Cobra el diablo (2-1) since the bike was dyno'd - however I haven't noticed any impact on the tune/bike behaviour with this change, hopefully the custom VE tables are still appropriate.

Well I would redo the VE's to suit your current pipes but in the meantime try this AFR table on the custom tune and see if it helps any, a couple of tuning runs would dial the VE's in much closer but I digress, will have a look now cobber

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

I know nothing of the Diablo, the V&H have a following, they cost a bit of performance, maybe they are similar performance wise I don't know, Cal's in the mail.

noctm
4 years ago

Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Jun 2019 09:15 AM
The canned AFR is a little lean in spots I reckon.

Quoting noctm on 04 Jun 2019 09:18 AM
I 100% agree, was thinking of decreasing it a few steps but am keen to see what you have for me - no rush/stress I will await your email.
PS. I have changed the pipes from V&H big shot staggered (2-1-2) to Cobra el diablo (2-1) since the bike was dyno'd - however I haven't noticed any impact on the tune/bike behaviour with this change, hopefully the custom VE tables are still appropriate.

Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Jun 2019 09:21 AM
Well I would redo the VE's to suit your current pipes but in the meantime try this AFR table on the custom tune and see if it helps any, a couple of tuning runs would dial the VE's in much closer but I digress, will have a look now cobber

Thanks mate. Yeah I'll do some smart tune runs and dial in the VE's.
This is my plan for now, let me know if it sounds like the best way forward:
1. I'm going to apply your AFR and the Custom VE's to the Canned map.
2. Is it worth grabbing the Custom map timing as well?
The surging I was getting on decel/closed throttle would likely be in the decel enleanment table correct? As the Custom map had quite bad surging in it somewhere which I don't want to carry over

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

Give it a whirl, timing doesn't look that different to be worried about just now.
Have the Accel and decell tables been modified in the dyno cal?

noctm
4 years ago

Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Jun 2019 09:44 AM
Give it a whirl, timing doesn't look that different to be worried about just now.
Have the Accel and decell tables been modified in the dyno cal?

Shows how much i know, i thought the timing differences between the dyno and canned map was pretty significant, but i am still learning that's for sure haha.

Yeah both the accel and decel tables were modified in the dyno map, and I'm pretty sure that the surging is coming from the decel table as when i was just using the dyno map's AFR & VE the surging disappeared, but obviously the fuel economy dropped because it's such a rich tune.

I can post the accel and decel tables if you want to have a look?

To make it a bit clearer, here's the differences i had with the two different maps:
Dyno map:
Surging on decel/closed throttle
Bad fuel economy
decel popping
no flat/dead spot

Canned map:
Flat/dead spot between 1500-2500 (probably closer to 1750-2250)
no surging
no decel pop
good fuel economy

Combined map (canned map with dyno maps AFR & VE's)
no surging
no dead spot
no decel pop
bad fuel economy

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

Back on phone, writing is small, eyes are not young, looks like a few points at WOT, use them if you want, can't see it can hurt.

noctm
4 years ago

Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Jun 2019 10:02 AM
Back on phone, writing is small, eyes are not young, looks like a few points at WOT, use them if you want, can't see it can hurt.

Wicked. You have helped me heaps mate! I'm very thankful.

While you're still hopefully in a helpful mood:
How important are/what impact do the accel and decel tables have? As mentioned I believe the surging I was getting on the dyno map came from the decel table, but that's just an assumption from some reading and the fact it went away when I didn't include those tables - but I also didn't use the custom timing at that point, so I'm wondering if timing could cause the surging?

I'll post the accel and decel tables so if you can be stuffed you can have a look and see if there's any reason I should use one over the other or if there's any irregularities.

Thanks again.

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

If you want, send me the dyno cal I'll have a look tomorrow, the A and D tables are just multipliers for those events, I hardly ever touch them as I have no easy way to measure what effect they have, you need mega squirt or similar to track them. Road tuning is not dyno tuning, some gets left on the table. Before you mess with them the VE's need to be dialed in anyway.

noctm
4 years ago

Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Jun 2019 11:02 AM
If you want, send me the dyno cal I'll have a look tomorrow, the A and D tables are just multipliers for those events, I hardly ever touch them as I have no easy way to measure what effect they have, you need mega squirt or similar to track them. Road tuning is not dyno tuning, some gets left on the table. Before you mess with them the VE's need to be dialed in anyway.

Okay i getcha, that makes sense. I'm going to copy in your AFR, and the custom map's VE & timing, into the canned map tonight. I'll report back tomorrow after my ride into work.
I've also emailed you the custom dyno map if you wanna have a squiz at what's in there - doesn't look like much went untouched when i compare it to the original so maybe you'll find something interesting.

cheers mate!

noctm
4 years ago

Update:
Road to work this morning (55km trip) and with your AFR, the Custom Map's VE & Timing, and Canned everything else - the bike felt pretty damn great, nice smooth powerband, and no surging as far as I experienced - so I reckon the surging must have definitely been coming from the decel table.
Too early to comment on fuel economy comparisons as my current tank is on it's last legs anyway, but will be able to tell after I fill up this arvo when going home.

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

Fuel economy will most probably be right hand related :)
Your cruise area is in closed loop at 14.3 - 14.5, if you stay steady in there it will be ok as long as those VE's are close.

noctm
4 years ago

Quoting Grease Monkey on 05 Jun 2019 12:02 AM
Fuel economy will most probably be right hand related :)
Your cruise area is in closed loop at 14.3 - 14.5, if you stay steady in there it will be ok as long as those VE's are close.

Yeah i think having that closed loop section will definitely help, as opposed to the rich & open loop settings across the board in the custom map.
I will do a few smart tune runs this weekend to make sure the VE's are dialled in and then i should be absolutely sorted.
I know you said the custom map's timing didn't seem too much different, and was mostly in the WOT sections - so should i just stick with the custom map timings? i know good timing contributes to a smooth powerband and delivery, i'm just concerned that because a few other things in that dyno tune weren't quite right. i don't have any pinging or anything though and the bike does feel nice, so i'm probably overthinking it.

Thanks again for all your help so far.

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

With the timing changes in the dyno cal I can only assume they were made for 1 of/or 2 reasons, it made better power with the changes or the changes stopped the system from pulling timing due to the ion sensing kicking in, sometimes you only need to take a couple of degrees out to stop the system pulling 8, run the dyno tables, won't hurt, once you dial the VE's in do a data run in full run mode and check for timing event's, if you find some yell out and we can go into that a bit more.

noctm
4 years ago

Sounds good to me. Many thanks mate

Grease Monkey
4 years ago

All good mate, you ride home yet?

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Help pls! - need some advice with EFI tune

Help pls! - need some advice with EFI tune

noctm

Grease Monkey

noctm

Grease Monkey

noctm

Grease Monkey

Grease Monkey

noctm

Grease Monkey

noctm

Grease Monkey

noctm

Grease Monkey

noctm

noctm

Grease Monkey

noctm

Grease Monkey

noctm

Grease Monkey