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  • hithere Posts: 57
    Stock Poster hithere
    15 Dec 2017 10:31 PM
    Hey all,

    There have been a number of discussions about scavenger oil pump failure leading to blown heads on this forum but I have not read anything about the 'transmission fluid migrating to primary' issue.  Officially known as Technical Bulletin TA0022.  

    It seems to impact M8 touring engines mostly.  However, the worst part is that this issue has NO KNOWN FIX as yet.  Harley is working on it, apparently.

    Some poor buggers in the States had their M8 engines replaced 3 or 4 times.  Then, Harley decided to only replace the gearboxes.  Most recent 'fix' is some kind of camshaft seal and spacer... which has helped some but it has not stopped the tranny oil loss.  Some bikes are loosing as much as 100ml - 300ml of fluid every 1,000kms!! Folks who rev more seems to have higher rate of issues.  Such as those with Stage 3 kit.

    On the State side, folks are up in arms about Harley making some loss of tranny fluid 'acceptable' now (read the 'Cause' section of the TA0022).

    I was intrigued that no one seems to be discussing this here.  Have you all checked your tranny oil level?  How wide spread is this issue really?  

    Cheers and Merry Christmas!


    HD Forums Australia - harley-davidson-ta0022.jpg

  • markwoumla Posts: 1492
    Performance Poster markwoumla
    16 Dec 2017 09:25 AM
    From the US forums , the talk is to do with migrating oil on the new M8 bikes..  The bulletin states they could also have a problem with earlier twin cam models , (Harley seem to have kept that under the radar),,,

    The bulletin also states the action required, (if oil is migrating),  on twin cams,   is to replace two parts , (see pic items 13 and 19).. On the M8 , they say just keep checking the primary and tran levels, and if migrating oil is over the top, take her back to the dealer , (to do what exactly ?? ) ....

    Sounds like they have not got a fix ,(parts wise), on the M8's if oil is migrating !!!

    PS ... The pic is for a 2015 Street Glide .



    HD Forums Australia - Crankcase parts 13 and 19.PNG

  • perthhog Posts: 1647
    Motor Head perthhog
    16 Dec 2017 09:59 AM
    This problem has been around alot longer than m8 or Tc engines  it is the engine oil ending up in the primary which all
    You normally do is replace the crank seal  on the primary side  that’s why the oil level rises in the primary 
    Maybe the Tc and the m8 are having this issue more to do with the crank runout deal 
  • Oz Dan Posts: 314
    QLD
    Stage 1 Poster Oz Dan
    16 Dec 2017 01:14 PM
    I had a second dyno tune last week and my bike transferred zero trans oil to primary. Just mentioning as this issue is reported to be amplified at high rpm.
  • perthhog Posts: 1647
    Motor Head perthhog
    16 Dec 2017 05:37 PM
    You obviously don’t have this issue than 
  • Oz Dan Posts: 314
    QLD
    Stage 1 Poster Oz Dan
    16 Dec 2017 09:03 PM
    Posted by perthhog on 16 Dec 2017 05:37 PM
    You obviously don’t have this issue than 

     lol. yeah, I mention it only because there is a school of thought that it’s a design issue, so all will do it.

  • hithere Posts: 57
    Stock Poster hithere
    17 Dec 2017 07:01 AM
    Posted by Oz Dan on 16 Dec 2017 09:03 PM

     lol. yeah, I mention it only because there is a school of thought that it’s a design issue, so all will do it.

    Great to hear that you don’t have this issue Dan.  Going from what I’ve read on the US forum, it only impacted some, but not all.  I just wish I knew what percentage of M8s are effected by this issue.  Is it 5% or 50%?  This story is said to hit the US media this month (bike magazines).  I guess the awareness might encourage owners to check their tranny fluid level.  We will just have to wait and see what Harley will do to fix this but most importantly, I hope current owners are looked after as well.

  • DocGreen Posts: 312
    Illawarra NSW
    Stage 1 Poster DocGreen
    17 Dec 2017 08:54 PM
    hithere, 2 separate issue there mate (unfortunately). One is 'sumping' leading to potential engine failure. HD have revised oil pumps several times, but there still seems to be failures. There is a bunch of opinions as to the cause, from (as OzDan said) design issues with the cases and pump design, to poor quality control of cylinders leading to excessive blow by, and leaking piston oilers - we all have to wait and see.
    The migration is limited to gearbox to primary (for the M8's anyway) and, yes, we are still waiting on an official fix from HD.
    It has been discussed on this forum by a few guys, and you can't help but feel pissed off for the ones affected, I'm not and am loving the bike but it is always in the back of the mind - really hoping HD get on top of this issue, and quickly.
    If you can wait, then wait would be my advice.

    cheers

    DocGreen
  • hithere Posts: 57
    Stock Poster hithere
    18 Dec 2017 08:46 PM
    Thanks DocGreen,

    Aside from wanting one, I am not in a hurry so I will wait.  Thanks for the info on oil pump as well.  Yes, as a prospective returning Harley buyer, I want to see all existing customers looked after before I would back the HD brand again.
  • dyna13 Posts: 176
    Stock Poster dyna13
    29 Nov 2018 09:39 PM
    So are there many transmission migrations happening with anyone now. Was wondering if the 2019 tourers are also affected? Not talking about slumping just the transmission to primary. 

  • Oz Dan Posts: 314
    QLD
    Stage 1 Poster Oz Dan
    29 Nov 2018 09:55 PM
    Quoting dyna13 on 29 Nov 2018 09:39 PMedited: 29 Nov 2018 09:41 PM
    So are there many transmission migrations happening with anyone now. Was wondering if the 2019 tourers are also affected? Not talking about slumping just the transmission to primary. 

    Not so sure there were ever that many in the scheme of things......but no, nothing has changed in design. There is a fellow in the states from Macomb County Choppers, name Greg Williams......he has designed a clutch push rod which is a bigger diameter than stock. Said to fix the issue every time if you have it. My bike has never transferred in 30.000 km but I installed the rod so I didn’t have to keep checking!

    More info here brother....https://www.hdforums.com/forum/general-harley-davidson-chat/1258837-no-more-trans-oil-to-primary-transfer.html

    Another bloke has a different fix but it requires drilling a hole in the actuator which I wasn’t keen on. Check out the same forum under “the Fix” if you want to go that way......


  • dyna13 Posts: 176
    Stock Poster dyna13
    30 Nov 2018 07:30 AM
    Yeh Dan read about both “ the fix “ and the push rod one. I’ve just heard about a couple of possible transfers but I do wonder how many people actually check their trans oil ( or engine, Tyres etc ) as some people don’t think it important for some reason and just ride until service time and when a service is done if they drop the oils without checking levels wouldn’t even be aware.
  • Oz Dan Posts: 314
    QLD
    Stage 1 Poster Oz Dan
    30 Nov 2018 08:10 AM
    Quoting dyna13 on 30 Nov 2018 07:30 AMedited: 30 Nov 2018 07:39 AM
    Yeh Dan read about both “ the fix “ and the push rod one. I’ve just heard about a couple of possible transfers but I do wonder how many people actually check their trans oil ( or engine, Tyres etc ) as some people don’t think it important for some reason and just ride until service time and when a service is done if they drop the oils without checking levels wouldn’t even be aware.
    True mate, most who haven’t heard of the issue probably never check. And why would they? Never had the issue personally, and I checked weekly.....but as above, I bought Greg’s Rod as Insurance.

    BTW - there are two pushrod fixes. The CVO 3 piece and the Williams jobby- the Harley Fix is reported to not work 100% of the time whearas the Williams rod appears to work all the time. Talking with him he says he’s sorted around 300 bikes so far, all fixed. His has now 10,000 miles on his own M8 without migration reoccurring.......His was $65 bucks delivered.......if it’s of any concern to you just get it done and the problem becomes non existent.
  • mickle Posts: 2041
    Meadow Heights Victoria
    Motor Head mickle
    30 Nov 2018 08:15 AM
    Quoting dyna13 on 30 Nov 2018 07:30 AMedited: 30 Nov 2018 07:39 AM
    Yeh Dan read about both “ the fix “ and the push rod one. I’ve just heard about a couple of possible transfers but I do wonder how many people actually check their trans oil ( or engine, Tyres etc ) as some people don’t think it important for some reason and just ride until service time and when a service is done if they drop the oils without checking levels wouldn’t even be aware.
    Quoting Oz Dan on 30 Nov 2018 08:10 AMedited: 30 Nov 2018 08:12 AM
    True mate, most who haven’t heard of the issue probably never check. And why would they? Never had the issue personally, and I checked weekly.....but as above, I bought Greg’s Rod as Insurance.

    BTW - there are two pushrod fixes. The CVO 3 piece and the Williams jobby- the Harley Fix is reported to not work 100% of the time whearas the Williams rod appears to work all the time. Talking with him he says he’s sorted around 300 bikes so far, all fixed. His has now 10,000 miles on his own M8 without migration reoccurring.......His was $65 bucks delivered.......if it’s of any concern to you just get it done and the problem becomes non existent.
    Just under $100aud delivered now.
  • Oz Dan Posts: 314
    QLD
    Stage 1 Poster Oz Dan
    30 Nov 2018 08:23 AM
    Quoting dyna13 on 30 Nov 2018 07:30 AMedited: 30 Nov 2018 07:39 AM
    Yeh Dan read about both “ the fix “ and the push rod one. I’ve just heard about a couple of possible transfers but I do wonder how many people actually check their trans oil ( or engine, Tyres etc ) as some people don’t think it important for some reason and just ride until service time and when a service is done if they drop the oils without checking levels wouldn’t even be aware.
    Quoting Oz Dan on 30 Nov 2018 08:10 AMedited: 30 Nov 2018 08:12 AM
    True mate, most who haven’t heard of the issue probably never check. And why would they? Never had the issue personally, and I checked weekly.....but as above, I bought Greg’s Rod as Insurance.

    BTW - there are two pushrod fixes. The CVO 3 piece and the Williams jobby- the Harley Fix is reported to not work 100% of the time whearas the Williams rod appears to work all the time. Talking with him he says he’s sorted around 300 bikes so far, all fixed. His has now 10,000 miles on his own M8 without migration reoccurring.......His was $65 bucks delivered.......if it’s of any concern to you just get it done and the problem becomes non existent.
    Quoting mickle on 30 Nov 2018 08:15 AM
    Just under $100aud delivered now.
    Yeah that’s correct my bad......did you have the issue Mick or did you just get one for insurance against it ever happening?
  • mickle Posts: 2041
    Meadow Heights Victoria
    Motor Head mickle
    30 Nov 2018 09:55 AM
    Quoting Oz Dan on 30 Nov 2018 08:10 AMedited: 30 Nov 2018 08:12 AM
    True mate, most who haven’t heard of the issue probably never check. And why would they? Never had the issue personally, and I checked weekly.....but as above, I bought Greg’s Rod as Insurance.

    BTW - there are two pushrod fixes. The CVO 3 piece and the Williams jobby- the Harley Fix is reported to not work 100% of the time whearas the Williams rod appears to work all the time. Talking with him he says he’s sorted around 300 bikes so far, all fixed. His has now 10,000 miles on his own M8 without migration reoccurring.......His was $65 bucks delivered.......if it’s of any concern to you just get it done and the problem becomes non existent.
    Quoting mickle on 30 Nov 2018 08:15 AM
    Just under $100aud delivered now.
    Quoting Oz Dan on 30 Nov 2018 08:23 AM
    Yeah that’s correct my bad......did you have the issue Mick or did you just get one for insurance against it ever happening?
    No issue only insurance as I get the stage 4 with woods cam and S&S pump done next week.
  • dyna13 Posts: 176
    Stock Poster dyna13
    30 Nov 2018 09:56 AM
    So is any further work need to fit the larger Williams diameter rod? As in seals or does it fit straight in. It’s a one piece isn’t it as the Cvo is a three rod?
  • mickle Posts: 2041
    Meadow Heights Victoria
    Motor Head mickle
    30 Nov 2018 09:57 AM
    Quoting dyna13 on 30 Nov 2018 09:56 AM
    So is any further work need to fit the larger Williams diameter rod? As in seals or does it fit straight in. It’s a one piece isn’t it as the Cvo is a three rod?
    I piece, slide old out and new in, done.


  • dyna13 Posts: 176
    Stock Poster dyna13
    30 Nov 2018 10:03 AM
    Sounds good will have a look
  • pogmahon Posts: 12
    Geelong
    Stock Poster pogmahon
    03 Dec 2018 09:02 PM
    Only became aware of this issue today as I am at 7000km and was running my eye over the bike (2018 FLTRXS) Checked gearbox oil dipstick as per manual (on stand, screwed in til 0-ring just seats, at room temp etc). No oil on stick at all??? stand bike upright, still nothing. Called my Dealer here in Geelong and they say they're unaware of any problem in regards to oil migration. Normally I'd dump the oil and measure the amount myself but I've dropped it in their lap and am waiting to hear back from them. In the meantime I've been doing a hell of a lot of reading about the issue and I believe it's bigger than they're willing to admit. I'll report back once I know more but it sounds like the Williams Pushrod replacement might be something to consider if it continues to happen.

    Cheers Graeme.
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